(AD&D 3.5) Suggestions for Paladin Feats?

[Wakshaani]

I've got the PHB, of course, and both teh Fighter and Clerical 'Splatbooks' ... teh Ultimate Feats book, the Book of Good ... basicly, I'm well-armed here.

But, a problem.

The 3.5 Paladin progression, where Turn Undead falls on *4th*, rather than 3rd, level.

Owie.

It threw all the plans I had to the side, setting everything out of balance.

This was followed by noting that the Paladin spellcasting level was half his Paladin level, rather than Level -2 like turning used to be. This puts the *vast* majority of Create Magic Item X out of range (20th level to make a +3 sword? 6th level to start making potions of Cure Light Wounds? Owie.)

So, now, I'm completely and utterly lost as to how to Feat a Paladin. Using the standard point buy system (25 pts), Wisdom, Strength, and Charisma are the only 13+ scores, leaving teh Dex tree out, as well as the Int tree. Con's low, so not a lot of hitpoints for a frontline-type, Dex is probably the worst stat you have, so your AC's not that impressive... gah.

So, like, some help, if you would? Let's use the Default Paladin setup:

Str 14
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 15

Start at First Level, Human, and see what jumps out at you. Where the heck do you *go* with a Paladin? The mounted feat tree seems *maybe* likely, but many a time, you'll be dismounted (Say, in a dungeon crawl) which leaves you fairly crippled. So, I'd rather see something that *doesn't* involve a horse, but, if that's the only way...

Recall, here, that 4th level is where you get spellcasting and undead turning, and that your caster level is half your Paladin level (So, for example, 12th level is as soon as you could get Craft Arms and Armor).

Anybody have suggestions?

-- Wak, curently lost in Lawful Good land.

[Metallian]

I think with Paladins, you want to stay away from Magic-related feats anyway...it's really more of a side thing, not their main focus.

Well, I don't have Defenders of the Faith, but I know there are a some Turning and Smiting feats in there.

I think you want to focus on general-purpose and combat feats...Paladins are primarily a combat class. There are a couple of ways you could go with this:

1) Pick a feat chain and go with it. Mounted Combat (like you said), and Power Attack, etc. are common Paladin choices, but there's no reason you couldn't go for a Dodge, Mobility, etc. or even some Ranged combat feats. The trick here is that Paladins don't get as many Feats as fighters, so you may not get to the really cool Feats for a long time, if ever.

2) Just pick up a few random feats that may come in handy. Improved Initiative is always nice, you could go with Power Attack and Expertise if you want to fine-tune your offense and defense to the situation. Improved Trip is much better now.

3) Try to compensate for a weakness in the character with Feats. Does one of your character's saving throws really blow? Take one of the save-boosting Feats. Is there are skill (or skills) you really want to be able to use, but you're frustrated with the Paladin's lack of skill points? Go with a skill-boosting Feat.

(Whoops. I just remembered that you posted your ability scores. I didn't take those into account while writing the above. He won't, for example, qualify for Expertise. My general advice still holds, however.)

The Metallian

[Cam Banks]

For this character, the feats aren't really where the power lies - that's in all the paladin abilities. Eventually you'll want to try and get as much mileage out of Wisdom and Charisma, which are what powers those abilities, but to handle the combat side of the character a good selection of combat feats is in order.

Power Attack and the others in that tree are ideal. Also, consider the merits of Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) and Weapon Focus (bastard sword) at 1st level paladin, picking up Power Attack at 3rd level, Cleave at 6th, etc. With the bastard sword you're able to dish out a lot of damage and still wear the heavy steel shield and heavy armor, and when you get Power Attack you can drop the shield in a particularly climactic moment, two-hand the bastard sword and bump up the damage with Power Attack's 3.5-revised two-for-one attack bonus for damage rule.

Paladins aren't the feat monsters that fighters are, so rather than agonize about specialist enhancement feats, item creation, or even extra turning, go for the simple melee combat stuff and leave the rest for the party's clerics, wizards, etc.

Cheers,
Cam

[Bahama'at]

Two feat areas I use with my paladin are the following:

1. use your Turn Undead for other things like the Divine Feats from Defenders of the Faith. I had a good DM who let me swap out the Remove Disease and Mount powers for free feat slots with which to buy my auras. The result is a more Diablo-style melee machine with some benefits for nearby allies.

I building on this idea with my DM. I have more ideas for Divine Feats which use Turn Undead uses. Quick note - since these replace class abilities, I got my DM to waive the necessary "Extra Turning" feat pre-requisite.

2. Find the "GOOD" book from AEG. There are some really good heroic feats in there. That's what I spend my real feat slots on. So far I have the following:
Heroic Daring - when I'm flanked I get a +2 bonus to my attack rolls as well

Heroic Courage - when fighting a creature whose ECL or CR is higher than my level I get a +2 to hit and fear saves (I'm immune to fear but the hit bonus is nice).

Divine Champion - when fighting undead/evil clerics (I think evil outsiders should be added to this list), you receive +1 to hit and +1 to AC or save (I forget).

There's some nice ones with limited per day uses (extra damage, bonuses to saves, etc).

For the record I play a low-strength/agile paladin with a very high Charisma (Str 12, Dex 16, Cha 18 - the strength is increased via the points you get every 4 levels, stats were rolled).

[MikeWilliams]

The "pokemounts" in 3.5 that many people complain about actually work out quite a bit to the Paladin's advantage when dungeon crawling. Hence, I'd go with the Mounted Combat feat chain.

[Metallian]

Oh, here's a more specific suggestion.

I notice that Cha and Wis are (relatively) high. You may want to buy up Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Negotiator would be a good feat, as would Skill Focus (Diplomacy) or Skill Focus (Sense Motive). My wife's high-Cha Paladin gets a lot of mileage out of Diplomacy. (Then again, she rolled high everything so, she can afford to mess around with social skills. I also run a lot of city adventures.)

Improved Grapple might be good...Strength is his second-highest stat, and Paladins have good saves, so he might make an effective anti-spellcaster guy.

The Metallian

[Bahama'at]

Originally posted by Metallian
I think with Paladins, you want to stay away from Magic-related feats anyway...it's really more of a side thing, not their main focus.

About the only exception to this would be maybe picking up Brew Potion. Potions of Divine Sacrifice, Protection from Evil and Bless Weapon are always great things. Also, the buff spells are part of the 3.5 paladin spell list. Making a couple of bull's strength or bear's endurance (not to mention eagle's splendor!) is always good.

[Bahama'at]

Originally posted by Metallian
I notice that Cha and Wis are (relatively) high. You may want to buy up Diplomacy and Sense Motive.
The Metallian

Diplomacy is great - remember you can end combats now with Diplomacy (DC 30, -10 for using Diplomacy as a standard action in combat).

Sense Motive is also very useful now that the Bluff-for-feint rules are in 3.5. Of all the fighter types, Paladins are the best anti-feinters around - with Good BAB and Sense Motive as a class skill (with the need for a decent Wisdom score hidden within the class).

[Wakshaani]

I took Power Attack and Iron Will at first level, then added Negotiator when my plans for Divine Might were foiled by the new 3.5 progression. (+3 damage for 3 rounds, by using one of my six turning attempts? I say thee yea!) I keep on running into situations of 'GAH! I would KILL for Cleave right now!" and tear my hair. Well, what's left of it, anyway.

Current skill selection:

Diplomacy: 6 ranks (+13 roll)*
knowledge - Religion: 5 ranks (+5 roll)
Profession - Farmer: 5 ranks (+6 roll)
Sense Motive - 5 ranks (+8 roll)*

* Modified for Negotiator feat.

Hit Points of 25 at 4th level, current AC of 15 (Chain Shirt and large metal shield, -1 for Dex)

Fortitude +9
Reflex +3
Willpower +7

Uses a +1 Longsword, has normal dagger, and a normal light crossbow (Rarely used)

Teh party doesn't have a Cleric, but has a Witch (Some healing) and myself. (Paladin, Rogue/Fighter, Fighter, Sorcerer, Ranger/Witch)

At 6th level, I could go with Cleave, Leadership, Divine Might, one of teh Heroic feats from teh Good book, Brew Potion ...

Mrf.

No Prestiege Class in line for me, either. I'm pretty much aiming for Paladin 20, eventually.

So ... that help put things out a bit better? (No horse, yet.)

[Metallian]

Originally posted by Wakshaani

So ... that help put things out a bit better? (No horse, yet.)

It's hard for me to judge because the party for whom I DM is totally munched-out, but I think he looks pretty good.

Unless you wanted to beef up melee with Weapon Focus or something...depends where you want to go with the character.

That +13 to Diplomacy is lookin' pretty good for 3rd level, so that's cool.

The Metallian

[vitus979]

Originally posted by Tiama'at
1. use your Turn Undead for other things like the Divine Feats from Defenders of the Faith.


Yes, Divine Might you will probably want to pick up due to your high CHA.

[pawsplay]

My preferred Paladin build is:

1 - EWP (bastard sword)
3- Mounted Combat
6 - Ride-by attack
9 - improved critical (bastard sword)
12 - spirited charge
15 - power attack
18 - improved initiative

human paladin:

1- EWP (bastard), power attack
3 - cleave
6 - mounted combat
9 - ride by attack
12 - improved critical (bastard)
15 - spirited charge
18 - improved initiative

undead slaver, human:
1- iron will, great fortitude
3 - extra turning
6 - weapon focus (heavy mace)
9 - improved turning
12 - skill focus (knowledge: undead)
15 - point blank shot
18 - far shot

elvish paladin, fencer:
1 - weapon finesse (rapier)
3 - dodge
6 - combat expertise
9 - improved disarm
12 - improved critical (rapier)
15 - improved initiative
18 - mobility

elvish paladin, archer:
1- point blank shot
3 - weapon focus (longbow)
6 - precise shot
9 - far shot
12 - rapid shot
15 dodge
18 mobility

multiclass paladin, human
advance as fighter 1-4, taking the human Paladin feat choices above and weapon spec (bastard), then switch to Paladin

multiclass undead slayer, human
advance as Cleric 1-5, taking the undead slayer feats, then switch to Paladin

[Wakshaani]

Ooo. Now, see, *that* was nifty to see.

What about a sort of 'Heavy wears the crown' style of future king?

[Metallian]

Originally posted by Wakshaani
Ooo. Now, see, *that* was nifty to see.

What about a sort of 'Heavy wears the crown' style of future king?

Neogitatior and Iron Will (which you already have) plus...well, just about anything you think is appropriate. Preferably something that will efficiently improve his combat ability after picking two non-combat feats. Power Attack may be okay. Or Weapon Focus. Or whatever.

Maybe take Leadership later on? Establish him as someone who has followers.

The Metallian

[Chiaroscuro]

Weapon. Focus.

You'll use it every round of every combat from here to eternity. That's a lot bigger total bonus than from Divine Might, which'll take a standard action to activate, anyway.

A good secondary choice is Lightning Reflexes, because otherwise you'll be terrible at Reflex saves forever. And you'll get hit with increasingly more of them for increasingly more damage as the lightning bolts, flame stikes, and enemy dragons become more frequent at higher levels.

C.

[vitus979]

Originally posted by Chiaroscuro
You'll use it every round of every combat from here to eternity. That's a lot bigger total bonus than from Divine Might, which'll take a standard action to activate, anyway.

A good secondary choice is Lightning Reflexes, because otherwise you'll be terrible at Reflex saves forever. And you'll get hit with increasingly more of them for increasingly more damage as the lightning bolts, flame stikes, and enemy dragons become more frequent at higher levels.


Umm, the FAQ for Defenders of the Faith established that Divine Might doesn't require any kind of action to activate, just that you declare you're using it and mark off a Turn attempt.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DefendersoftheFaithFAQ1015.zip

As for Lightning Reflexes, it doesn't matter since he adds his CHA to his saves, and since this will probably be a high CHA character then the +2 you get is less useful than with a Fighter or Cleric.

[Cam Banks]

Originally posted by vitus979
Umm, the FAQ for Defenders of the Faith established that Divine Might doesn't require any kind of action to activate, just that you declare you're using it and mark off a Turn attempt.


Specifically, it's an ability that you use in combination with any attack or full attack action, and uses up one turning attempt to activate it. In this sense it's a lot like Power Attack, etc etc.

Cheers,
Cam

[Chiaroscuro]

Originally posted by vitus979
Umm, the FAQ for Defenders of the Faith established that Divine Might doesn't require any kind of action to activate, just that you declare you're using it and mark off a Turn attempt.

Well, shows what I know. Maybe that's why my cleric never used those feats--I was doing it wrong. Makes the ability a lot more useful. Especially with that many turning attemps a day.

As for Lightning Reflexes, it doesn't matter since he adds his CHA to his saves, and since this will probably be a high CHA character then the +2 you get is less useful than with a Fighter or Cleric.

He adds 2 from CHA, and subtracts 1 from DEX. He's always going to suck at Reflex saves, though yes, less than a fighter or cleric (though he would probably have assigned his points differently in those classes.) And yes, the benefit of +2 lessens with levels, but it'll be significant for a while, I think.

10th level wizard: +5 (spell level), +6 (INT), +10 (base), +2 (spell focus)=total save DC 23.

Wak's Ref bonus: +3 base, -1 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 resistance=+5.

He saves 15% of the time without the feat and 25% of the time with it. Not world-breaking, but it is a weak area.

At 20th level:

Wizard: DC 31
Wak: +6 base, -1 Dex, +3 Cha, +4 resistance=+12

Now he saves 10% without or 20% with. The +2 is less important compared to the cloaks of resistance, but still makes a difference.

These numbers all off the top of my head, and in no way official. ;)

C.

[vitus979]

Originally posted by Chiaroscuro
10th level wizard: +5 (spell level), +6 (INT), +10 (base), +2 (spell focus)=total save DC 23.

Wak's Ref bonus: +3 base, -1 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 resistance=+5.


I'd point out that you've got a couple problems here.

1) You're assuming the wizard will have a Headband of Intellect and that the Paladin will not have a Cloak of Charisma, which won't necessarily be the case since this character seems be CHA heavy.

2) You're assuming that the Paladin will drop neither of his 2 attribute increases into either CHA or DEX, but you ARE assuming that the Wizard will drop his 2 increases into INT. The last part I'll grant you is probably correct 99% of the time, but the first part I'd argue.

3) You're assuming an 18 INT wizard to start with. If the GM actually rolls dice for his opponents or points them out with point buy this will make the Wizard pretty weak in other (exploitable) areas.

3) Spell Focus only grants +1 now. It's a pretty pimped out, not to mention one dimensional, wizard who has Greater Spell Focus at 10th level (to get the full +2).

[pawsplay]

What about a sort of 'Heavy wears the crown' style of future king?


Hm, assuming human:

1 - Negotiator, Persuasive
3 - Iron Will
6 - Leadership
9 - Mounted Combat
12 - Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
15 - improved critical (with the most badass weapon he owns at that point)
18 - spell focus (abjuration)

EDIT: Just noticed dispel magic and dispel evil don't have conventional Saving Throws. Level 18 should instead be Spell Penetration.

[Chiaroscuro]

Originally posted by vitus979
I'd point out that you've got a couple problems here.

1) You're assuming the wizard will have a Headband of Intellect and that the Paladin will not have a Cloak of Charisma, which won't necessarily be the case since this character seems be CHA heavy.

True, but I gave him a cloak of resistance, instead, which is cheaper.

2) You're assuming that the Paladin will drop neither of his 2 attribute increases into either CHA or DEX, but you ARE assuming that the Wizard will drop his 2 increases into INT. The last part I'll grant you is probably correct 99% of the time, but the first part I'd argue.

I have him putting some into CHA by 20, but not by 10, true. As it's an odd stat by lvl 4, so that's probably unreasonable. So let's call that an additional +1 from CHA.

3) You're assuming an 18 INT wizard to start with. If the GM actually rolls dice for his opponents or points them out with point buy this will make the Wizard pretty weak in other (exploitable) areas.

Actually, I'm assuming 16 starting INT, with 2 boosts by lvl 10 (for 18) plus headband of intellect+4 for INT 22, which IIRC is +6 to DCs.

3) Spell Focus only grants +1 now. It's a pretty pimped out, not to mention one dimensional, wizard who has Greater Spell Focus at 10th level (to get the full +2).

Fair point, I'd forgotten about that. IMC there's no GSF, and the first one is still +2. Good point.

Incidentally, the wizard also doesn't have Archmage levels, as I don't remember how that PrC works, or allow it IMC.

Cheers, C.

[Wakshaani]

Well, at 4th level (Just reached, yay!) I went to the 16 Charisma. 8th level will see a 14 Wisdom, then Charisma from then on.

The Paladin is kinda odd. Not as good of a fighter as the Fighter, a Cleric as the Cleric, or as charismatic as a Rogue. It seems more like a class you get for either a small (1-3) group or a large (7+ group), rather than the 4-6 norm. Or is that just me?

As for teh Reflex save, I considered it, but, luckily, most Ref spells are just damage, and even with my terrible Hit Die rolls, a Paladin's fairly thick with hit points, usually. A Firecall from a 7th level wizard will usually be about DC 16 or 17, to my current save of +3, dealing about 12 if I pass (... ow ...) or 24 if I fail (OW!). But Fortitude or WIll stuff just blows off with ease. And, really, wizards tend to Will-hunt any large armored guy with a sword, since they assume that he can shrug off thumping-type spells.

But, that's a maybe.

Weapon Focus? Really? Is the +1 to hit that big of a deal? It seems so innocent...

[Korgan]

Im playing 10th lvl fighter 2/ Palidin 5/ Dwarven Defender 3
he has a high Str. 18 and Con. 20 the other scores are average.
I decided to go with a defensive build so I took
Axe focus
Shield Specialization
Dodge
Endurance
Toughness
Combat Expertise
He obviously a Dwarf which helps with HP also, but he is using a tower shield, and Interlocking plate armor from Races of Stone (great book) So his Hp is 147!
and his AC is 27 and easily gets up to 35 against one target! and 39 when in defensive stance! He is very much a tank.

[Master Of Desaster]

I'd definitively add "Leadership" to your feats wishlist.

Talk to your GM how he interprets those "modifiers" to your Leadership score because by the raw anyone hurt, will ruin your score for ages ...
By intention there should be a different interpretation or at least not a "lasts forever" tag ...

[Mr Adventurer]

Holy crap, that's an Overwhelming Aura of Necromancy.

[Wakshaani]

Holy crap, that's an Overwhelming Aura of Necromancy.

No kidding!

I was, like, "Oh, hey, a Paladin thread. Don't see THOSE very often! I'll pop in and see what teh guy ... holy crap, this is MY trhead. From 2003! WTF?!"