incredibly silly question: D12?

[Nid]

i'm serious when i say i adore the aesthetic of the D12 above all others. there's something mystical in the pentagonal facets, something spiritually warming of its 12-sidedness, and just something incredibly sexy about the way it feels in your hand.

the D4: sure it's got the whole mystical thing going on with its shape, but it's far too grainy.
the D6: reminiscent of Yahtzee and Backgammon. ick. the word "borg" comes to mind, too.
the D8: the D6's differently-abled cousin
the D10: boring. technical and precise, definitely. but where's the soul?
the D20: the D12's fansub, with a lame and overwhelming aesthetic.
the D30: i've never used one of these, but i suspect it suffers the same ailments as the D20.

where's the D12 love? what's its problem?

[Demonic Gerbil]

I think that part of the problem (and maybe a small one) is that a lot of people (myself included) coming from primarily the wargame/boardgame side don't see d12s very often. I've only seen them in stores, never used a real one (although in online play I've used dice scripts and the like to roll imaginary ones). I've used d6's a plenty, d8's in wargames, d10's for percentiles (and other wargames). I'll admit to not rolling too many d20's (D&D 3E isn't my bag) and never touching a d30.

A larger way to look at the lack of d12 love is that historically 6-sided dice have been far more common for games. Just grab a boardgame or wargame off the shelf. Most likely its resolution mechanic is based on a d6. I'd wager that this is a decision not based on any aesthetic but on the sheer fact that there are more d6's in circulation than any other type of die.

Anyways, I lost my point, or maybe I never had one. I think the d12 is cool as dice go (certainly more exotic than anything but the caltrop d4 and d30), but whenever I hear "D12" I think of rappers. :p

[Nid]

[stupid and crazy idea]
D12 PRODUCTIONS!!!!

MUAHAHAHA! WE WILL CORNER THE MARKET!

WARGAMES, P&P RPG'S, BOARD GAMES, ALL IN ONLY 12-SIDED GLORY!
[/stupid and crazy idea]

that'll show ya.

(yes, i do base my current project around multiple D6's, but it relies on rolling sometimes large pools of the same type of die, and i challenge you to market, free nonetheless, a product requiring 8d12)

--edit--hell i can't even bother myself to own more than 4.

[jdagna]

I don't really have anything against the d12, but it is my least favorite die. Something about the shape of the sides makes them more likely to roll forever than any other die (including the true d100 and the d30).

[Nid]

huh? but it has FIVE SIDES per face, giving its facets excellent surface area. the d20 is unbearable in that respect, at least to me.

[Knarf]

Actually, Cartoon Action Hour and Pokethulu use d12s

[Illegible Smudge]

As does Dominion Rules I believe.

[Peter K.]

Nid, I agree whole-heartedly with you about the d12. I've always liked it (the d8 and d4 being my runners up, maybe it's a multiples of four thing) and felt it was under-represented. In the old 2E AD&D game there were only a couple weapons that did d12 damage, and even those I think were only against a certain size category of beastie.

Unfortunately most of the games I've tried to work recently have already had their own die mechanic (ie. d20 or GURPS), or used dice pools (I feel smaller or more common dice are better for dice pools), or just used very small ranges (FaLoR uses 2d4+stat).

Truthfully, although I like the d12 alot, my real desire is for a game that uses all the platonic solid dice. One of the things that attracted me to RPGs (aside from the prospect of pretending to be something interesting) was the cool variety of tranpartent and oddly sided dice that people kept in a bag like gems. Now that I've got 'em I'd like an excuse to use 'em.:cool:

[bigsimon]

I've actually been tossing around the idea of using the d12 as the core die for a system. From an asthetic viewpoint, it makes sense, as the world I'm creating is something of Christian mythos in the modern world - and 12 is a number that figures in quite a bit with Judeo-Christian numeronics.

[A.J.Gibson]

I don't think there's anything wrong with d12, but rather there is little specifically useful about it. d10 and d20 both offer a similar range of numbers, but have probabilities that are easier to work with. d6 is an old standby, and it has a very small range of numbers that makes it easy to add together large numbers of them, so games with adding mechanics often use them. d8 and d4 are close in number range to the d6, and are about as easy to add, but with the d4 it's harder to read and roll, so it's not really as popular as d6.

d12 has a large range of numbers, but it is not convenient to work with in terms of determining probability, and the numbers are large enough to make adding additional dice a chore.

[MercutioWilder]

If you find an old thread entitled 'Pile of Dice Mechanic' you'll see that I proposed a system where essentially every roll involved a d12.

Now there's love.

And why? Cause the d12 just seemed 'right' for it somehow.
(and so far its worked great)



-merc:D

[jdrakeh]

I'll have something up on my site near the end of the week that utilizes a d12 for task resolution (the HunterZ RPG). It's nearly complete now, it simply needs to be reformatted for web distribution. Yes, shameless self-promotion is my bag.

[bigsimon]

The more I think about it, the more I think it might be a good idea for me to stick with d6s... especially since the book is going to be sold in a non-standard environment for game materials. I'd like people to be able to buy the book, take it home, and having it playabe by grabbing a couple dice from Monopoly, Risk, or Yahtzee.

[Valandil]

D12s rock. We need more d12 resolution systems.

Actually, maybe we need a resolution system that involves buying d12s!

--brought to you by the d12 council Valandil

[Blue Seraph]

Originally posted by A.J.Gibson
d12 has a large range of numbers, but it is not convenient to work with in terms of determining probability, and the numbers are large enough to make adding additional dice a chore.

I agree with AJ. Don't get me wrong, the d12 is beautiful. But what to do with it? Using only one gives you a flat probability, and you may as well use d10 or d20. Adding two (or more) goves you double digit math. Then there's pool scanning (CAH or Vampire) but neither of those mechanics seems to scream "you must use d12!"

Now d3 -- that's the future...

[Harlequin Jones]

I love the d12 shape. It is the nicest feeling of all the platonic solids. I love the way it rolls.

I'm not crazy about the range. I love d6s for that reason.

My dream dice are dodecahedrons with 1 to 6 on them twice, like the old icosohedral d10s.

I think Fudge has proven that the shape and range of a die need not be related. When will we see more dice not labelled from 1 to X ?


HJ

[Nid]

Harlequin Jones:
My dream dice are dodecahedrons with 1 to 6 on them twice, like the old icosohedral d10s.

quick, Robin! to the Bat-Sander!

should i call to rent an shallow-bore drill?

no, Robin, we're in peak physical condition. it'd be faster to use craft knives.

(seriously, i live down in Westlake. hit me up some time and we can have a d12 conversion party :P)

[Valandil]

Here's an idea I had for a bunch of custom d12s that work as probability-skewed d6s...

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=10730#post10730

Unfortunately, no one responded to it. :(

--Valandil

[Xeriar]

Originally posted by Valandil
D12s rock. We need more d12 resolution systems.

Actually, maybe we need a resolution system that involves buying d12s!

--brought to you by the d12 council Valandil

I actually started designing a success-based d12 system where you roll dice equal to skill and try to get equal to or less than your attribute to succeed (penalties and bonuses could apply, though frowned upon :D - for example you would have wound levels, each one reducing all attributes by 1...)

[Harlequin Jones]

Originally posted by Valandil
Here's an idea I had for a bunch of custom d12s that work as probability-skewed d6s...

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=10730#post10730

Unfortunately, no one responded to it. :(

--Valandil

Hunh...I could have sworn I was involved in a conversation about those funky dice of yours. Perhaps it was in another thread, perhaps about a different solid.


HJ

[Valandil]

Really? If so, I missed it. Maybe I should go back and read that thread again. :)

--Valandil

Edit: BTW I saw an educational site once that sold polygon dice with stickers.

[Kizig]

One of my games, Mnemonic, uses d12's. I wanted to use a deck of cards as the randomizer and wound up with a system where attribute and ability each ran on a scale of 0 to 6. The cards became ace/1 to queen/12 with the goal of drawing under combined attribute and ability.

The d12 just came along for the ride when I included the option of using dice but I'm glad it did. I mostly use 3d12 select middle value, so I had to get new ones for the game and started paying attention to them. They're very easy to read and roll well, they look good on the table. Plus, I've discovered that a few in the hand make really good meditation balls!

-Kizig

[Harlequin Jones]

Originally posted by Nid
(seriously, i live down in Westlake. hit me up some time and we can have a d12 conversion party :P)


heh...cool. I wouldn't know where to begin. I failed shop class.


HJ
(lucky I was good at math and science)

[Lachlan]

Originally posted by bigsimon
I've actually been tossing around the idea of using the d12 as the core die for a system. From an asthetic viewpoint, it makes sense, as the world I'm creating is something of Christian mythos in the modern world - and 12 is a number that figures in quite a bit with Judeo-Christian numeronics.

"The Ring of Ritornel", by (I think) Charles L. Harness is a SF novel that uses this concept a lot. One of the major state religions is the worship of Alea, Goddess of Chance. All of Her priests carry around a d12 as a holy symbol, and literally rolled the dice to learn Her will.

[Harlequin Jones]

Now there's a faith I can get behind.


HJ

[nargun]

I've been doing some digging; there's more than one sort of dodecahedron.

In addition to the pentagonal dodecahedron, there's a rhombic dodecahedron (dual of the... cuboctohedron, IIRC), and the triakis tetrahedron, dual of the truncated tetrahedron.

I'm pretty sure I've seen rhombic d12s (they look like d30s, but with only 12 sides). But I can't recall where; never seen triakis tetrahedra with numbers on them.

Oh; the 4-space equivalent of the icosahedron has 600 tetrahedral sides. I want; I hear they come free with bags of osmotic food bath for hyperspherical dogs.

[Peter K.]

Wasn't there some Dr. Who episode where a giant dodecahedron figured prominently? Nothing to do with dice though I think.

[Blue Seraph]

Originally posted by nargun
I've been doing some digging; there's more than one sort of dodecahedron.


Do you have a link?

Is it an Archimedeal solid (where the faces alternate shapes, like a soccer ball? If so, it would not return true results.)

[BlackSheep]

Originally posted by Peter K.
Wasn't there some Dr. Who episode where a giant dodecahedron figured prominently? Nothing to do with dice though I think.

It was a Tom Baker story called Meglos. The Dodecahedron was the power supply on the planet Tigellis.

[Lxndr]

The d5 returns true results. So does the d7.

But the rhombic d12 does have all sides the same shape.

[bigsimon]

Originally posted by Lxndr

But the rhombic d12 does have all sides the same shape.

That it does. Here (http://www.mathpages.com/home/coinc2.htm)'s a link to a Java-based model of a Rhombic Dodecahedron.

[Valandil]

Not as pretty.

--Valandil

[Mithras]

I suppose a d12 could be used for a basic roll under system, where stats/skills are rated 1-10. Always had a problem with 2d6 in that regard.

[BlackSheep]

I've heard of people using a d12 for BESM (2d6 roll-under) as a way around the average human's perceived suckitude. 4 or less is twice as easy on a d12 as on 2d6. Then again, people also play d20 with 2d10, so it's a matter of taste.

[Marius B]

I love the d12.

Here's a two resolution systems that I've thought up based on the d12.

The first is for a homebrew game that I'll almost certainly never finish. Skills and Attributes and whatnot are rated from 1 to 9 with 5 being about average. In order to accomplish something you must roll equal to or less than this number. A 1 is an automatic success. A 10 is an automatic failure. The 11 and 12 do not determine success or failure. Instead an 11 or 12 means you get either 1 or 2 extra "Grades" and have to roll again to determine of your action was succesful or not. If you roll multiple 11s and 12s, you just keep adding up those Grades. A success with any extra Grades is a spectacular success - the more Grades, the more spectacular. A failure with any extra Grades is a way awful failure with the number of extra Grades determining the degree of way-awfulness.

The second is just an alternate open-ending system for Witchcraft. It's somewhat similar to the first. Instead of rolling a d10, you roll a d12. The numbers from 1 to 10 are interpreted normally. An 11 means roll again with a +3 bonus and a 12 means roll again with a +6 bonus. On multiple results of 11 or 12, the bonuses stack.