[Rant] Am I wrong on this?

[Rhombus]

As some of you might have picked up on, I'm having headaches with a publisher over contract negoitations. I'm not saying who or what project. I don't want to get a rep for dumping on publishers.

The jist of the problem is that the Publisher is offering terms that would suit First Publication but wants almost as many rights as outright purchase of the work would give.

On the surface, the deal is reasonably lucrative for me, although it does involved a LOT (almost certainly 100+ pieces) of artwork, but on a $/piece level it's close to getting sod all.

The problem main surround one particular piece that the Publisher would like to use as an ID piece and do the usual 'whoring it mercilessly' including using it for merchanise. I have stated outright to the Publisher that I consider Merchandising Rights completely seperate to Printing Rights (and the law backs me up on this, which surprised me somewhat) and if he wanted to use my work in merchandise, he could pony up for those rights as well (the initial contract offered sort of 'backdoors' these rights in, which is why I refused to sign it and why we're negotiating). That went down like a brick through the shithouse window.

Not only have I had to listen to how 'other artists on the project had no problems with the contract' (snore) and some interesting perspective on some of the less professional points of my career in the past but also a long tirade of how I'm trying to gouge the Publisher for money I have no right to and how they don't need me anyway (but would still really like me to work for them - on their terms, obviously).

I've offered to sell the piece in question to the Publisher for a tidy sum but they refused, saying if that was the case, they'd use someone else's artwork. Currently we've reached me stating the obvious - if they're so willing to use other work for merchandise, does it really matter if they don't get the rights to use mine?

So, do you people think I'm wrong to risk such a lucrative (but hard task) deal over something as 'trivial' as merchandising rights (especially as I've agreed to let them have 2nd use in print for a small royalty and am more than willing to let them use my work for ad work for their game already)? Am I being anywhere as greedy and uncooperative as the Publisher has indicated (and if so, why the hell are they even bothering to negotiate)?

In a nutshell, have I let Arrogance and Pride get in the way on a nice pile of cash that I could really do with about now?




I need to get my portfolio back up to scratch and online so I can make better money off better people. ;)

[Matt Drake]

As some of you might have picked up on, I'm having headaches with a publisher over contract negoitations. I'm not saying who or what project. I don't want to get a rep for dumping on publishers.

Good call. No reason I can think of to scare off potential future employers.

So, do you people think I'm wrong to risk such a lucrative (but hard task) deal over something as 'trivial' as merchandising rights (especially as I've agreed to let them have 2nd use in print for a small royalty and am more than willing to let them use my work for ad work for their game already)? Am I being anywhere as greedy and uncooperative as the Publisher has indicated (and if so, why the hell are they even bothering to negotiate)?

In a nutshell, have I let Arrogance and Pride get in the way on a nice pile of cash that I could really do with about now?

No.

I have hired many artists since I started Spectre Press, and I always buy one-use rights to the art I use. If I want to use it for more than one product, or 'whore it out' as often as I want, I am going to have to pay a lot more for it.

If you're not comfortable with the contract, the publisher, the medium or the gig, blow it off. Let 'em give it to someone else.

And am I wrong in thinking that it's going to take you a little while to do 100+ pieces of art? So even if you do need the cash, you're not going to see it for a while, right? So you could take other, smaller jobs, and more of them, and get more money per hour of your time?

I rarely negotiate very long with the freelancers I hire. I am pretty much set in my ways when it comes to contracts, and while I will make some concessions, I don't like to rewrite whole contracts. And if the freelancer is uncomfortable or feels like he's getting ripped off, he's not going to be particularly great to work with - he will likely miss deadlines, submit shit, or refuse to make revisions. If a freelancer expresses a lot of hedging at what I can pay, I usually just say, 'OK, why don't I hire you when I can pay better.' Then the freelancer doesn't feel like I'm going to cheat him, and I don't worry about hiring someone who doesn't want to work for me.

OK, back on topic, if they don't want to pay what it's worth, don't sell it. Get all hard-nosed and lay it on the line. Tell them exactly what their money will buy, and what it won't. Give them options, like this:

For X I will do art, which you can use one time.
For Y I will do art, which you can use four times.
For Z I will do a big fat color piece, and you can slap it on anything from book covers to backpacks.

I would love to have freelancers do that, and not just say, 'Ummmm... I'm not sure.' Tell me what you want, and I'll see if I can deliver. If not, we shake hands and no harm done.

Matt Drake
www.spectrepress.com

[Edited because I hit the 'Enter' Key from the subject line]

[Eilfin]

Well, without knowing all the details, it's a bit hard to say....

But, for the artist I worked with on a large project (about 100 illustrations in total as well), our contract gives rights to use the art for a few years, for a variety of mediums. But, it also grants the artist to use those same pictures for his own mediums. And, after the contract terms expire, all rights revert back to the artist.

But, if there are things in the contract that you don't want to deal with - don't. Simply tell the publisher that the contract simply doesn't work for you. If they are unwilling to work on it with you, then it's just not worth it. (My opinion.)

[Rhombus]

Originally posted by Matt Drake
If you're not comfortable with the contract, the publisher, the medium or the gig, blow it off. Let 'em give it to someone else.

There's the rub. Every time I think they've broken off negotiations, they came back five minutes later more willing to listen to me. Either they're stupid, think I'm stupid or something weird is going on that I'm not picking up on.



And am I wrong in thinking that it's going to take you a little while to do 100+ pieces of art? So even if you do need the cash, you're not going to see it for a while, right? So you could take other, smaller jobs, and more of them, and get more money per hour of your time?

Yes and no... About 40 pieces are finished and 30 need some modification. It's a long and boring story, suffice to say the longest time has pretty much been taken already.



OK, back on topic, if they don't want to pay what it's worth, don't sell it. Get all hard-nosed and lay it on the line. Tell them exactly what their money will buy, and what it won't.


That's the thing. I want to sell to them, I just don't want to sell them everything they want. It's really up to them to decide if they want what I'm selling or not. I'm not going to accept any terms I disagree with but if they keep coming back to the table, it doesn't cost me anything to listen.. except stress and anger, but life in general gives me those anyway. :D

[Samurai]

Chances are, they have no one else immediately on tap. "Better the devil you know," as the saying goes... (no offense :) ) They don't know when or where they will find another artist able or willing to take a big contract like that and deliver consistent, quality art. The fact that they keep coming back to quibble with you means they seem to trust your artistic ability and willingness to do the work, and the fight is just over what they can/ will pay for that.

[Adrian Selby]

I'd suggest you hammer out a degrading % deal for merchandise over time. The rpg industry, being a small one outside of a big few players, does not have much money sloshing around. If you're not that well established you sometimes have to swallow it to build your professional portfolio, but if you're moderately busy, you should stiffen your resolve.

As a fledgling web development agency MD, I've taken on really rubbish jobs to pay the bills, and people have got a whole lot for their limited money, but whoring myself utterly has begun to put me in the position where frankly, they can fork out because I've now got lots of experience and a portfolio of work that shows we're professional, or, they can get lost.

Good luck, but hammering out a compromise is usually the best way.

[Rhombus]

Originally posted by Adrian Selby
I'd suggest you hammer out a degrading % deal for merchandise over time. The rpg industry, being a small one outside of a big few players, does not have much money sloshing around. If you're not that well established you sometimes have to swallow it to build your professional portfolio, but if you're moderately busy, you should stiffen your resolve.


I'm more than aware of the tightness of funds in the RPG industry (and many other creative industries) outside the major players but the actual money in and of itself isn't the prime factor for me it's what people want for the money that is, getting the fairest deal. I have no interest in ripping people off but I also have no interest in being ripped off either.

[Rhombus]

Originally posted by Samurai
Chances are, they have no one else immediately on tap. "Better the devil you know," as the saying goes... (no offense :) ) They don't know when or where they will find another artist able or willing to take a big contract like that and deliver consistent, quality art. The fact that they keep coming back to quibble with you means they seem to trust your artistic ability and willingness to do the work, and the fight is just over what they can/ will pay for that.

Oh, I don't doubt they have other people onboard. I seriously doubt they'd be stupid enough to try and play hardball with me if they didn't have people to cover the load if I pulled out. I've subcontracted on Graphic Design work for them on a number of occasions and they know I have very little patience for people playing silly buggers.

Anyway, while they're still willing to negotiate, I'm willing to listen if there's any progress.

[EvanMoore]

Negotiations are always touchy. However, ultimately you come to the question: Is losing the whole deal worth the *possibility* at some royalties sometime in the future?

Whether you're right or justified reallydoesn't enter into it.

The question is simple: Are you willing to lose the contract, the deal and the contact with that publisher over a few possible bucks in the future?

I can't speak for them, I don't know them--but if I told an artist, "X isn't worth it to me, I'll just get another artist to do it", it's not a negotiation ploy, it's the truth and I'm willing to walk away from the table right then and there.

I mean no offense to anyone when I say this, but artists and writers who want to break into the industry are plentiful (thankfully, for me!). If they have chosen that they want those particular rights and you won't give it to them, the bottom line is, someone else will.

That's the awful reality.

So, you just have to make up your mind how far you're willing to bend over and whether you'll grab one ankle or two.

Hey, at least they've "kissed you first" with a decent offer for a long-term art assignment.

Evan

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Contract negociation is ALWAYS adversarial, it has to be by its very nature. Each side is trying to get the most for the least. Somewhere between the opposite ends is the compromise point and that's what you and the publisher are trying to reach right now. When this phase is over, you can go back to being friends again. Just figure this is a normal and aggravating part of the process.

The RPG (I'm assuming) will normally have a 2-3 year life if it is successful. Why not put in your contract where they have the use of the work for 5 years and then ALL rights revert to you. Be sure they put your signature/chop into every picture they print. A hundred pictures is a lot of publicity and shows you can carry a large job. Later you can get better terms as you ascend the food chain.

Make a list of what you want and its importance to you and rank those in a list. Expect to give something up at the bottom of the list, for the high priority ones. Both sides have to do this.

It also sounds like you're dealing with people inexperienced in contract negociations--or highly uncomfortable with it. They don't know really where they should be putting their emphasis.

Good Luck,
LIW

[Rhombus]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf
It also sounds like you're dealing with people inexperienced in contract negociations--or highly uncomfortable with it. They don't know really where they should be putting their emphasis.

That's for certain. Apart from wanting everything and more short of actual ownership of works, the contract they offered had several major flaws which could land them in trouble if someone who's signed it makes an issue of. Breach of contract, unauthorised use, etc. Things which small publishers have nightmares about.

[dalziel_86]

Geez, the way you guys talk about this stuff, you make it sound too much like sex for my comfort level. :)

"...people to cover the load if I pulled out..."

"...whoring it mercilessly..."

"If you're not comfortable with the contract... blow it off"

"...so I can make better money off better people"


Yeah, I know, I'm quoting out of context. :D

In reality, I imagine contract negotiations are scarily more like physical intimacy than any of us really want to think about. ;)

[Rhombus]

Originally posted by dalziel_86
In reality, I imagine contract negotiations are scarily more like physical intimacy than any of us really want to think about. ;)

There's an obvious rape connection there for anyone who cares to make it.

[Rhombus]

For those of you following my tales of woe, I've come to an agreement with the publisher for royalties on any merchandise bearing my work. I feel vindicated and much happier that I can now get on with some work for this company instead of negotiating.

[Jeremy McHugh]

Good for you, Rhombus!
I feel it is important to get what you need out of a contract agreement while acheiving a balance with the needs of the other party. If both parties are happy, then the working relationship can flourish and produce some great things. I guess it can bear some analogy to intimacy...;)
Good work, man. I hope this project proves a great experience for you and your client.
---Jeremy

[Holy Bear]

Good everything ended up alright.
Now I won't have to treat you for an ulcer. ;)

Asbjørn

[Rhombus]

Thanks to all who chipped in advice and listen to my whinging and whining. May the Freelancing Fairy visit you all and leave fat contracts under your pillows.

[Steve T. Laws]

Yeah, you're wrong. I'm sorry, but Ladies aren't attracted to windex like you told me. I've tried it on seemingless countless dates and all of them seemed to end a tad too early. I blame the windex, and you're advise, Sir.

Alright, on the topic, me thinks . . . nae, me knows I'm late to help ye on the topic. But I'll give you a little advice, . . . Speak softly and carry a big stick. There's more fish in the Sea. Better to have love and lost, than to have never loved at all. A penny saved is a penny earned. A bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush. Show me the money! He was tall Dark and handsome. Fool me once, ahame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Tour the bridges of madison county. Let sleeping dogs lie. Don't poke the bear with a short stick. Bring a great attitude and a winning smile. Men are from mars, women are from venus. Knick-knack-patty-whack give a doge a bone . . . and many many more.

The most important of which is, "You gotta eat shit to know shit." and these stains all over my face ain't from chocolate and my horrible breath ain't from garlic.

I know this doesn't help, but I thought the attention might.