Overthrow the D20 System

[wraith_2021]

I'm just wondering why the D20 System is a do or die system?

In my opinion there are a lot of better systems out there that are easier to use and are not as clunky.

The OGL is something which is risky at best, and the system is not something that I would like to even attempt to bend to fit into a setting it just plainly doesn't work for.

So the question is why does it have a huge following?

The answer, because it’s WOTC, and not only is it that, but it has lots of products supporting it using this system.

Now imagine if a system came along which was quick, simple and generally malleable. And the label wasn’t D20 but because it was diverse it allowed any genre of game to use it with plug-in rules.

Now imagine if suddenly the shelves started filling with these non D20 system games, where would the custom go?

It’s easy to see that like most things in life many people are sheep (this is not meant to offend) they follow something simply because others do. They wear labelled clothes because of the mark, and the crowd follows trend, they do things because it’s the in thing, they listen to the same old music because it’s in the charts and shun against anything different.

Shaking down the wall

So how do you overcome this factor?

There are two ways to berry the dead donkey (after all, it’s been flogged to death!)

A conglomerate of games published form different publishers using a single system which allows them to change parts to how their world works while keeping its base mechanics and creation method and using the logo are brought out in a timely manner of each other would sway the populous in this direction, and would give publishers the freedom to include the rules set which is made up for their game in their book without having to go out and but another rule book. The games would be complete and also compatible also would have add-on mechanics which are designed for that game, for instance a game which needs rules for different types of magic may be done and this would no affect the core mechanic allowing for more freedom.

(Sorry if I’m rambling)

The second method would be to each have their own system and company logo etc... But come under a conglomerate logo which shows this product is supported. (Like all fashion trends, the sheep will follow)
This would be more of a Ploy, but would work on the basis that if say 10 or 20 books are released by several companies using the Conglomerate (seal of approval) logo on it they would somehow be related in the eyes of the public, now, just think if a D20 game gained this same logo, or in fact a few D20 games?

Then D20 and other games with this logo (although different systems) would be viewed as somehow being linked together. This would seep the populous of D20 gamers to start looking at these books, even buying them to see why they have been put under this label, after all, if a D20 as this seal and they like it, then these other games with the seal must also be as good, if not better.

Basically what I’m saying is, sheep follow the flock, and if the flock changes direction the sheep will also change direction too.

What’s the views?

[Patrick Chipman]

There's not enough market inertia in the gaming industry to overcome the juggernaut that is D&D. The fact that D&D runs on d20 is why d20 is so popular; it has nothing to do with WotC (who, if you'll recall, was better known for its card games) or any inherent capabilities of the system, which in its full, unmodified form, is next to useless for anything outside epic fantasy.

I suspect that if every (or even many) small press publisher started using the same system, it would improve all of their sales, but honestly, I don't think it'd be that large of an improvement. Very few people who'd buy these games anyway refuse to play them on the grounds that they aren't compatible with a system they already know. The reason so many companies are jumping on the d20 conversions bandwagon is both because they want to maximize profits and because many distributors are avoiding products without that crucial d20 tie-in.

Really, I don't know why people hate d20 so much. In its OGL mode, it's a metasystem, and when properly modified, it can handle a number of genres and styles (realistic, however, just isn't one of them). At its core, it's just a simple resolution mechanic. Why is there so much hatred, other than to take down the Evil Empire?

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by Patrick Chipman
There's not enough market inertia in the gaming industry to overcome the juggernaut that is D&D. The fact that D&D runs on d20 is why d20 is so popular; it has nothing to do with WotC (who, if you'll recall, was better known for its card games) or any inherent capabilities of the system, which in its full, unmodified form, is next to useless for anything outside epic fantasy.

I suspect that if every (or even many) small press publisher started using the same system, it would improve all of their sales, but honestly, I don't think it'd be that large of an improvement. Very few people who'd buy these games anyway refuse to play them on the grounds that they aren't compatible with a system they already know. The reason so many companies are jumping on the d20 conversions bandwagon is both because they want to maximize profits and because many distributors are avoiding products without that crucial d20 tie-in.

Really, I don't know why people hate d20 so much. In its OGL mode, it's a metasystem, and when properly modified, it can handle a number of genres and styles (realistic, however, just isn't one of them). At its core, it's just a simple resolution mechanic. Why is there so much hatred, other than to take down the Evil Empire?
Its not that the OGL is hated because it is enabling those who just play D&D its hated because until the OGL was released people were buying other games, Call of Cthuluh for one has had to convert to D20 for sales, where as before the OGL was released I never saw Chaosium struggling with sales.

The fact is it’s hated because it halts the creativity of a gaming system, and it forces people to heed to a label, which in my opinion is wrong.

I like the choice of a system; I like the fact that Call of Cthuluh uses a percentile roll and has the mechanics for investigation. I also like the fact that I can play other games with their systems tailored to their games. Does this mean that I hate the D20 system itself or what the OGL stands for?

If several small press game companies were to unite under a system then sales would increase, and if more of these companies united under different systems then you would eventually get some diversity among what was being produced.
Imagine, you have D20 and then 3 or 4 other gaming systems used, you would have a choice again, I do not agree in a market being dominated by one thing, it will grow stale and it will do this very fast, then where is the industry when every game published is under the same label and all those who go out looking for a change can’t find one and give up the goat?

Conformity causes rebellion, and if all conform then gamers will rebel, and all games will be worth jack, change something while you can, and don’t wait for this to happen.

[wraith_2021]

This has made me realise a good point, imagine if several small games companies went under one name, one logo and one system. They would all be independent in the fact that what they sold would be theirs, but would be as a whole in the public eye, so if I brought out a game and it sold well, then the next game would be seen as being as good, it would be as if those in this conglomerate were one company, they would all work to the same goal and the success of each increases the success of the others, several small companies would be capable of attaining the outward goals of the bog boys.

I’m up 4 this if anyone else is..
:D

[flyingmice]

Capital idea! Who's system do we choose? I'm sure everyone of us indie game authors will happily chuck our own systems and use someone else's!

:P

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by flyingmice
Capital idea! Who's system do we choose? I'm sure everyone of us indie game authors will happily chuck our own systems and use someone else's!

:P

well, as for the system it would be a joint effort, this way we get what we all want, i'm not one for saying mines better, and in the end if we have all made the input and the outcome is a good one what is there to loose?

[Forum Administrator]

Originally posted by wraith_2021
This has made me realise a good point, imagine if several small games companies went under one name, one logo and one system. They would all be independent in the fact that what they sold would be theirs, but would be as a whole in the public eye, so if I brought out a game and it sold well, then the next game would be seen as being as good, it would be as if those in this conglomerate were one company, they would all work to the same goal and the success of each increases the success of the others, several small companies would be capable of attaining the outward goals of the bog boys.
I wouldn't have quoted this whole thing but frankly I didn't have a choice. It's all one sentence.

I would like to point out to you that you are, either accidentally or through some really, really dense osmosis, describing exactly what Swords & Sorcery already is. You do understand that? You also understand that d20 isn't just some evil cabal - that it's essentially exactly what you've just said. The only difference is that at the core of the d20 explosion is the single-most hugest RPG on the planet. What, exactly, do you have up your sleeve that would make someone pick *you* over picking *d20*?

Granted, this sort of scheme would work for Storyteller (#2 and fading) or Palladium (distant #3). Then again the day my fingers type the words 'RIFTS Supplement by Kuma Pageworks' for real will be the day they haul me away in a bag with a toe tag.

It's all nice that you want to rage against the machine, but unless you're the second cousin of J.K. Rowling and can convince her to hand over the RPG rights, you've got nothing but a lot a rage, son.

[wraith_2021]

Sorry I’m a bit tired at the moment its 2:16am over here, and I’m probably spouting sh*t.

Right here is the difference. I never said D20 was all evil, I said why should there be conformity without choice?

Then the afterthought was simply, why have a single game company trying to make it on their own when several hiding behind the same label would look bigger and seem better?

Your right about me being thick (I usually am), but by no means am I raging against the machine. I just don’t want to see the machine turn into a Pentium a la Microsoft of the gaming industry, you Need Windows to do anything. Kind of you need D20 to do anything.

[Patrick Chipman]

There's already a choice. I haven't run into the "if it's not D20, I won't play it" fanboyism that seems to be so rampant in the rest of the world.

If I can find open-minded players, I'm sure others can.

[David Johansen]

A couple months ago, on the Game Design board I was talking about putting together a set of common stats for everyone's s.f. game and throwing a unifiying logo on them. Similar good idea no?

Nope, not at all.

If you really believe that independant game designers can agree on enough similarities between their games to make portability easy, you're living in a dream world. Getting a large group of people to design a single game system is very nearly impossible (or called GURPS which is illustrative of the problem)

My anti d20 plan is to publish my own game, shill the hell out of it and hope I can give away enough free copies that the remaining ones will fit in my (presently flooded) basement. If I can recoup my costs, I'll either support the game with the retrieved investment or publish a different game depending on what people seem to want.

How will this fight d20? Well my game's not at all like d20 and I'm not on the band wagon. Honestly, the bandwagon's a pretty good thing, game stores are doing relatively well right now. Which is good for everyone in the industry and the hobby.

Johansen

[dalziel_86]

The major problems I have with the d20 system are these:

1. I really don't like the system itself. The mechanics are too mathematical for my liking, all modifiers and indirect application of stats. You have to got through a good stretch of looking up charts and calculating bonus just to make up a character, let alone play the darned thing. On top of that, it's a system with only one social stat, two mental stats and three physicals.

Which brings me to:

2. The style of gaming it encourages. Which is, undoubtedly, mostly about combat/confontation, and the accumulation of stuff. And what else would you expect when most of the core rulebooks (which, thanks to the way the OGL and d20 Licence work are required for most all d20 material) are devoted to those very things?

Personally, I'm not fussed with having the gaming community I'm part of be (admittedly this is a worst case scenario) dominated by l33t-speaking 13-year-olds yelling "d00dz, check out my Fighter 12/Cleric 4/Mage 7 ! Innit kewl?!", with those who prefer a more intellectual style of gaming relegated to buying up the few OOP books for older, now extinct game systems they can find.

It's about evolution of products in a capitalist economic environment, which mostly comes down to a pseudo-democratic system of survival. Thing is, the mob doesn't always know best, especially if they have limited exposure to alternatives.

True democracy is based on the premise of an informed electorate, and thus this econo-democratic RPG selection system should ideally rely on an informed market. Unfortunately, if d20 dominates stock shelves, it will dominate market share, which decreases revenue to the alternatives and cuts down their opportunities for promotion and chances of getting shelf-space. And so on, and so on, in a depressing spiral.

Yes, this is the reality of a capitalist economic system. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Here endeth the rant.

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by dalziel_86
True democracy is based on the premise of an informed electorate, and thus this econo-democratic RPG selection system should ideally rely on an informed market. Unfortunately, if d20 dominates stock shelves, it will dominate market share, which decreases revenue to the alternatives and cuts down their opportunities for promotion and chances of getting shelf-space. And so on, and so on, in a depressing spiral.

Yes, this is the reality of a capitalist economic system. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Well first I will say OMG what was I on last night setting of these posts!!!

Secondly, this is the reason I’m trying to get at, if D20 continues to be supported by gaming companies, then demand for D20 products will increase, its a very simple marketing strategy, and has nothing to do with the fact that the system is from D&D.

Imagine the D20 system as a games console, and the various books as the consol games.

the consol may be rubbish, but because its got lots of games it produces demand, and as demand increases so do the amount of games.

I could make a reference to a few good consoles which were good but flopped due to lack of support, some even better than most out on the market, but like it goes, if production is high, then demand follows production, and while the D20 wagon rolls down the hill more and more people will be diving on the back.

I just hope there’s still a niche left open for other games to take their place on the shelves.

[AndyGuest]

Originally posted by wraith_2021

Its not that the OGL is hated because it is enabling those who just play D&D its hated because until the OGL was released people were buying other games, Call of Cthuluh for one has had to convert to D20 for sales, where as before the OGL was released I never saw Chaosium struggling with sales.

The fact is it’s hated because it halts the creativity of a gaming system, and it forces people to heed to a label, which in my opinion is wrong.


Um ? Has CoC suffered any fall in sales ? Chaosium never had the greatest sales before and WotC made the CoCD20 game under licence from Chaosium.

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by AndyGuest


Um ? Has CoC suffered any fall in sales ? Chaosium never had the greatest sales before and WotC made the CoCD20 game under licence from Chaosium.

well, this is not true! it states clearly their reasons for doing a D20 CoC and it ain't anything to do with WotC, its to do with the same thing everyone else is going D20

heres a snippet of what they say. check out their website.

While we've tried to make it clear in the past that Chaosium is not abandoning our classic lines, we're still getting email from upset cultists who think we're switching entirely to d20. So it bears repeating: Chaosium will continue to support our Basic Role Playing Call of Cthulhu & Stormbringer lines. While some of our future releases will be dual stat releases (including BRP & d20 material), we will continue to print BRP only releases as well. We've been publishing BRP system books for over 20 years, and with your support, will do so for the next 20 years as well.

So why are we printing ANYTHING using the d20 system? Because there are thousands of gamers out there we'd like to introduce to our game lines, who might not look at our books otherwise. We want and need those extra sales, and those new Chaosium gamers, so we can continue printing Books and Games for another 26 years. So we hope most of you will see this as an opportunity to find more Chaosium players, and ensure we can keep printing the books you want.

[Dan Norder]

One option for an open game system that's not D20 and allows including character generation is the Action! System by Gold Rush Games. The core rules were just released and extensions are being worked on also. Gold Rush and some other small publishers are releasing games using the system. For the details, check out the website at www.action-system.com -- it might be just what some of you are looking for.

Dan Norder
Inklings Press

[Charles Gray]

But it hasn't hurt secondary publishers as much as some think.

Look, all D20 is is an engine. You don't have to use it, but if you want to use it, you can do so for free.
This permits companies that could have never afforded the start up costs required to put out a rule book, players guide, etc., to put out their world setting, with just the rules needed for that setting. In other words, it expands the amount of variety out there, which is IMHO, a good thing.

For example, Mongoose could never have done what they did, if they had to try to pitch their own propietary system, which would have had a small market share. instead, using D20, they've produced a lot of unusual and innovative ideas.

In any case, it hasn't killed the market for second tier games at all. At last check there was BESM (Tri-stat), Interlock/fuzion, ACTION, Story teller (both for WOD and EXalted), GURPS, Rifts, Deadlands, etc. If D20 was intended to destroy all enemies, it's done a pretty poor job at it.
D20 is dominant because D&D has ALWAYS been dominant-- no two ways about it. The only thing that has changed is now other people get to try to see if they can do it without the licensing fees that would have eliminated that possiblity before OGL.

As for creating a widely used independent's game system, you could try ACtion-- but I think you'll fail. Many independents create their own gaming system precisely because no other system fits their needs-- and as such a standardized system must fail.

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by Charles Gray
But it hasn't hurt secondary publishers as much as some think.

Look, all D20 is is an engine. You don't have to use it, but if you want to use it, you can do so for free.
This permits companies that could have never afforded the start up costs required to put out a rule book, players guide, etc., to put out their world setting, with just the rules needed for that setting. In other words, it expands the amount of variety out there, which is IMHO, a good thing.

For example, Mongoose could never have done what they did, if they had to try to pitch their own propietary system, which would have had a small market share. instead, using D20, they've produced a lot of unusual and innovative ideas.

In any case, it hasn't killed the market for second tier games at all. At last check there was BESM (Tri-stat), Interlock/fuzion, ACTION, Story teller (both for WOD and EXalted), GURPS, Rifts, Deadlands, etc. If D20 was intended to destroy all enemies, it's done a pretty poor job at it.
D20 is dominant because D&D has ALWAYS been dominant-- no two ways about it. The only thing that has changed is now other people get to try to see if they can do it without the licensing fees that would have eliminated that possiblity before OGL.

As for creating a widely used independent's game system, you could try ACtion-- but I think you'll fail. Many independents create their own gaming system precisely because no other system fits their needs-- and as such a standardized system must fail.

Do you feel that independant publishers with their own game system could stand out against D20 on the shelves?

as i was reading on another post, the new star-treck Game has flopped simply on the dasis it Wasn't D20. What does this portray?

as a publisher you have to make a choice. Do you go D20 for sales, even thought you know your own system runs faster and smoother and is suited to your game?

Maybe i'm looking at it wrong, maybe D20 will loose its appeal as most things do, it will die down and slot itself among the many other games, but we can only wait and see.

[Dan Norder]

Originally posted by wraith_2021

as i was reading on another post, the new star-treck Game has flopped simply on the dasis it Wasn't D20. What does this portray?

If someone is claiming that that's the sole reason it flopped, it's a pretty flimsy analysis. There are lots of successful non-D20 games being released all the time.

as a publisher you have to make a choice. Do you go D20 for sales, even thought you know your own system runs faster and smoother and is suited to your game?

I'm not even sure D20 will, by itself, improve your sales by a significant portion. You will get some sales because one customer wants D20 and some lost sales because another customer doesn't. How much you go up or down depends upon what kind of product you have to sell and whether it appeals to a more pro-D20 or anti-D20 group. If you are trying for a basic high fantasy setting, well, sure, D20 is probably a benefit. Anything else and it's not a given.

Dan Norder
Inklings Press

[Charles Gray]

Originally posted by wraith_2021


Do you feel that independant publishers with their own game system could stand out against D20 on the shelves?

as i was reading on another post, the new star-treck Game has flopped simply on the dasis it Wasn't D20. What does this portray?

as a publisher you have to make a choice. Do you go D20 for sales, even thought you know your own system runs faster and smoother and is suited to your game?

Maybe i'm looking at it wrong, maybe D20 will loose its appeal as most things do, it will die down and slot itself among the many other games, but we can only wait and see.


Well, there's a problem. Most of the systems I mentioned were already in existence when D20 was released, so they already had fan bases.
The problem with releasing a new system right now is two fold. First of all, any D20 product will sell to some amount-- because it's compatible and people who might otherwise give it a pass will pick it up on that basis.
but more importantly, the mass of D20 stuff out there means that no single product or company has to support the entire world by itself.
A new independent book will have both problems. On the one hand, you'll have to convince the retailer that your product will sell as well as D20 or the already existing game systems, and justify his expenditure of retail space, and you'll have to come out with enough material to support an entire product line-- because while I can't say any independent game would fail or succeede, I can say that any independent game that brings out a single book will probably fail. Now, if you can support an independent product iwth a goodly number of competitively priced items (and theyu're good!), you have a decent chance.

[wraith_2021]

Yeah, i suppose.

It seems at the moment though, even non D20 games are being converterted. things like Star wars, Call of Cthuluh, and a few others have taken to the OGL when their games are fine with their own system. This may be to increase sales, but it is also giving the impression that D20 is the one and only way to go.

There are always those who would reject D20 because they prefer somthing which is created with its own system.

A quote from a magazine on the D20 matter.

"If your game is not D20 it has to be better than chocolate and sex together or it will fail!"

this is not an uplifiting thought, but i will continue to show my support to those who choose the non D20 road, and purchase their games, even just for the read (atleast you get the rules in the book).

at the end of the day, i think its the best way forward IMHO.

[Charles Gray]

Originally posted by wraith_2021
Yeah, i suppose.

It seems at the moment though, even non D20 games are being converterted. things like Star wars, Call of Cthuluh, and a few others have taken to the OGL when their games are fine with their own system. This may be to increase sales, but it is also giving the impression that D20 is the one and only way to go.

There are always those who would reject D20 because they prefer somthing which is created with its own system.

A quote from a magazine on the D20 matter.

"If your game is not D20 it has to be better than chocolate and sex together or it will fail!"

this is not an uplifiting thought, but i will continue to show my support to those who choose the non D20 road, and purchase their games, even just for the read (atleast you get the rules in the book).

at the end of the day, i think its the best way forward IMHO.

I Think the Magazine suffers from a case of over kill. There are more roadblocks in front of the independent route-- but D20 hasn't so much as made them bigger, as it has provided an alternative route to get your product out there that is easier. If I want to create a fantasy setting, now I can, and tweaking D20 to fit is far easier then making my own. OTH, if you can support your game with releases, it will probably sell (if it does somethign that buyers like), but not as well as D20.
If you can't afford to put out the needed number of print supplements, might I suggest PDF? You only pay for your labour, and many of those who like independent games are also online, so you will sell. Not as much as a print, but put it this way-- 100 ten dollar print games will probably result in you seeing about 1 dollar/copy after all is paid for. 100 five dollar PDF's will have you seeing about 4 dollars/game. The difference is: PDF=400$ compared to 100$ for print.

[NPC Casual Witness]

Originally posted by wraith_2021

Its not that the OGL is hated because it is enabling those who just play D&D its hated because until the OGL was released people were buying other games, Call of Cthuluh for one has had to convert to D20 for sales, where as before the OGL was released I never saw Chaosium struggling with sales.



Ha!
Ha!Ha!
Ha!Ha!Ha!
Hahahahhahahahahaha!

Chaosium has almost collapsed into debt several times. They have been unable to pay authors on more than one occasion. They're a swell group of guys but business sense they do not have.

With the d20 CoC they are getting a nice infusion of cash to help them keep going.

This may come as a shock but before their was d20...there was AD&D. While many fan boys refuse to accept this most gamers have always played AD&D and now they play D&D 3rd edition. The only change is that they are now buying products from other companies in much greater numbers thanks to WotC releasing the d20 OGL material.

[dalziel_86]

Originally posted by wraith_2021

Its not that the OGL is hated because it is enabling those who just play D&D

Actually, part of the reason I loathe the d20 system's profusion *is* that it enables not so much those who only play D&D as those who only play that particular *style* of gaming. And when I say style, I'm not talking about high fantasy.

As I've said elsewhere, I find the d20 system excessively mathematical and mechanistic. Modifiers for this, that and the other thing, to the point where, in many cases the rules are more important than the world.

Have a look at the 3ed PHB and DMG. Look at how much space and word-count is devoted to rules, then compare that to the amount given to explaining the existing D&D world (default is Greyhawk, but you'd be hard-pressed to figure that out from what's in the PHB, especially if you're not already aware of Greyhawk), or how to create your own. This stat-focused style of writing is continued in every new book I've seen to date. And the way a game's rules work *does* affect the style of play, just as the reverse is true: that the style of play designers intend affects the system they will use.

I find it disturbing; that this style of gameplay may come to be the dominant form thereof. And anyone claiming that the d20 system and the games that use it as their sole system* are not predominantly about hack-n-slash or rules-driven gameplay has a huge weight of evidence against them, in the form of the afore-mentioned quantity of material devoted to just that. That's not to say this style of gameplay is wrong or bad, just that it's not the only way.

D&D, and the d20 system, are most peoples' introduction to RPGing, even today. And the fact that gamers, particularly newer, or younger, gamers (some varieties of whom I, at least, admit to commonly referring to as 'munchkins'**) can go from one d20 game to the next, means they will have no impetus to try a different style of gameplay.

Partly because I, personally, don't find it to my liking. I find that style of play somewhat immature, dissociative, unimaginative, and generally boring. That's fine, and I don't claim that that, in and of itself, is a valid reason for others to dislike the d20 system's profusion. However I have no desire to be identified with those gamers who do play that style of game. And unfortunately, D&D and it's players are, for the most part, the public face of gaming.

To top it off, the fact Wizards have chosen to release the d20 system as an OGL in its current form means it's going to be that much harder for them to ever make improvements to the system. The system does need work. A friend of mine describes it as having so many patches and fixes, it's now just about band-aid solutions the whole way through. For example, there's no way to directly use the ability stats in the system; they're only there as sources to derive the modifiers from.

If you ask *me*, it needs to be re-written from the ground up, mostly to make it more flexible, easy to understand and simple. But no-one did ask me, and I'm not complaining about that. I'll be playing d20, if only because I want to play Star Wars, and convincing players to use the WEG system, and tracking down the books to do so, would be too much touble.

So I guess I'll just have to wait and see if d20 dies slowly and painfully, dragging part of the landscape down to Hell with it, or if the players reach beyond the confortable, derivative, pulpish fields of d20 gaming, and try a different style of gaming.



* I'm exempting games that use the d20 system as an alternative system from this assertion, as in most cases (i.e. d20 Deadlands, d20 Cthulhu, Godlike) the inclusion of such an alternative is an attempt to capture some part of the d20 market share.

** I'd love to track the etymology of the term munchkin. Gamers I know insist it's because those to whom it is applied are often/usually short and have squeaky voices.

[NPC D_leonard]

I feel that I must ask how it is truly an OGL if they won't let people publish the rules for experience in their own supplements. It seems to me that they are afraid their own products can't compete with third party products if they allow all the rules to be copied.

[Crayne]

This thread is full of remarkably strange assumptions and misconceptions, but let's address the most basic one.

D&D3E was not released under the OGL. The d20 System Reference Document WAS released under the OGL, making it free to use in any other OGL product (as long as none of the OGL material is designated as Product Identity).

If you want to release a d20 game that includes rules for character creation and/or advancement, but still use the d20 tie-in logo and brand-recognition, it'll fall under the guidelines in the D20STL, not the OGL. If you want to put in your own rules and not carry the d20 logo or brand recognition, you're free to do so under the oGL.

Wizards has never claimed D&D3E falls under the OGL, nor the d20 system as a whole. They have provided a gaming OGL under which companies and individuals could publish their works, while using material from other OGL products.

To recap: D&D3E and the d20 system are not OGL. Only the d20 System Reference Document is.

Crayne

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by Crayne
This thread is full of remarkably strange assumptions and misconceptions, but let's address the most basic one.

D&D3E was not released under the OGL. The d20 System Reference Document WAS released under the OGL, making it free to use in any other OGL product (as long as none of the OGL material is designated as Product Identity).

If you want to release a d20 game that includes rules for character creation and/or advancement, but still use the d20 tie-in logo and brand-recognition, it'll fall under the guidelines in the D20STL, not the OGL. If you want to put in your own rules and not carry the d20 logo or brand recognition, you're free to do so under the oGL.

Wizards has never claimed D&D3E falls under the OGL, nor the d20 system as a whole. They have provided a gaming OGL under which companies and individuals could publish their works, while using material from other OGL products.

To recap: D&D3E and the d20 system are not OGL. Only the d20 System Reference Document is.

Crayne

And this means what?......

So could i add my own rues system and place a D20 conversion table in the back and stick the D20 logo on my book?

or am i worong?

[Crayne]

Originally posted by wraith_2021

And this means what?......

So could i add my own rues system and place a D20 conversion table in the back and stick the D20 logo on my book?

or am i worong?

Yes you are. You cannot use the d20 logo or use the phrase d20 or anything remotely linking the game to D&D unless you apply for the d20 System Trademark License, which is not the OGL and in reality bears no resemblance to it at all. It is a professional publishing agreement which stipulates very strict guidelines for publishing d20 material. It is the kind of thing you need a lawyer for to avoid tripping up and getting sued.

If you want to publish your own rules for advancement and character creation, you can only use the OGL. And that prohibits you from calling it d20 or claiming compatibility with D&D.

Crayne

[Bradford C. Walker]

Put another way: RTFM.

Specifically, look up the Open Gaming License and the D20 System Trademark License. Read them, throughly. Read the FAQs associated with them. Go the archives of the OGL-L listserv and read them. You have no excuse for being this clueless.

[Charles Gray]

Originally posted by Crayne



If you want to publish your own rules for advancement and character creation, you can only use the OGL. And that prohibits you from calling it d20 or claiming compatibility with D&D.

Crayne

It should be noted that this doesn't keep you from publishing a D20 adventure with stats for multiple systems-- Gold Rush has done that. Just that in that adventure sourcebook, you cannot have any information that would allow you to create a character from scratch.
So for example, if you had characters statted out for fuzion/D20/Gurps, that would be fine, but you couldn't include the rules for fuzion or gurps, as that would violate the "no character" creation part of the D20. .

[wraith_2021]

Originally posted by Bradford C. Walker
Put another way: RTFM.

Specifically, look up the Open Gaming License and the D20 System Trademark License. Read them, throughly. Read the FAQs associated with them. Go the archives of the OGL-L listserv and read them. You have no excuse for being this clueless.

Did that ages ago.

I was trying to clarify what he has said, because it sounded to me, that’s exactly what he meant, which was wrong.

Think before you post, it usually helps.

[Crayne]

Originally posted by Charles Gray


It should be noted that this doesn't keep you from publishing a D20 adventure with stats for multiple systems-- Gold Rush has done that. Just that in that adventure sourcebook, you cannot have any information that would allow you to create a character from scratch.
So for example, if you had characters statted out for fuzion/D20/Gurps, that would be fine, but you couldn't include the rules for fuzion or gurps, as that would violate the "no character" creation part of the D20. .

You are completely right. But I was talking about publishing a whole game. If it's in the d20 SRD, you can use it (if you adhere to the stipulations of the OGL), so stat blocks etc. are perfectly acceptable.

[Crayne]

Originally posted by wraith_2021
Did that ages ago.
I was trying to clarify what he has said, because it sounded to me, that’s exactly what he meant, which was wrong.
Think before you post, it usually helps.

Then thinking about what you post might help as well, because most of yours are only marginally intelligible. No offence, but I am having a really hard time trying to figure out what you mean by the quoted piece above.

You were wrong about being able to slap a d20 logo on it, you are not wrong in saying that you could publish a d20 conversion table in your game.

Crayne

[wraith_2021]

Yeah, that is written a bit poo, sorry. I should have written:

The question about me having rules for a system of my own and D20 in the same book was so I could clarify the meaning of what crayne wrote, it sounded to me like this is what he meant.
I was just clarifying this wasn’t the case.

Sorry about the confusion.

[CrazyIvan]

I do not, from personal experience, understand the terror that has everyone swept up that after d20 comes out, there will be no other game systems. I have found that most players come into the market via Dungeons and Dragons, and rather than forcing them to learn a new rules system, the d20 system can let players explore new genres.

It is because of the weakness of the d20 system beyond fantasy and a few others that allows others to survive. We liked a d20 swashbuckling adventure, so instead of sticking with d20, we went out and bought 7th Sea for example. d20 isn't a threat, its a gateway drug.

Maybe developers should stop ranting about the evils of d20, and worry about making better games.

[Bradford C. Walker]

You fail to look ahead. D20 Modern will expand D20 beyond fantasy, horror and space opera. Third-party publishers have a few superhero games on the way. Some have products based upon D20 Modern. Oh, and there's Spycraft to cover the espionage adventure angle. There's a D20 version of 7th Sea coming soon from AEG, and I expect that there will be more adaptations to come in the years ahead.

The business of gaming doesn't match with your perceptions.

[James Hargrove]

Originally posted by Bradford C. Walker
You fail to look ahead. D20 Modern will expand D20 beyond fantasy, horror and space opera. Third-party publishers have a few superhero games on the way. Some have products based upon D20 Modern. Oh, and there's Spycraft to cover the espionage adventure angle. There's a D20 version of 7th Sea coming soon from AEG, and I expect that there will be more adaptations to come in the years ahead.

There are plenty of d20 games, but seeing as how they all use the same core system, they all have an extremely similar feel (although not <i>exactly</i> the same as some people would have you believe).

The d20 system is kind of like vanilla ice cream in this respect. Like vanilla ice cream, you can top it with all manner of cool things, but it's still plain old vanilla ice cream at the core.

Some people grow tired of vanilla ice cream, despite what toppings it might have slathered all over it. Some people just prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla to begin with. Some people don't even like ice cream - they like frozen yogurt.

For any of these people, d20 won't cut it in the long run. That's just the way it is.

James Hargrove

[wraith_2021]

well, so much for the big D20, gaming stores are getting sick of the products, and distributors have taken the thing of, if it ain't brilliant and its D20 its not getting sold. This is the change i was hoping for, they are beginning to take abourd new gaming systems, and they are weighing the games up exactly the same, some distributors are plain refusing to do any more D20 stuff untill they have got rid of their old stock of D20 stuff.

Does this mean the end of D20?

No, it does mean that D20 will fall on the shelf besides any other game goodenough to make it out there. And i can see people thinking before they choose the D20 road ahead of them.

Another note, the startreck rpg was supposidly have ment to flopped cos it was not D20. well its taken off as far as i can tell, it just had a slow startup.

[Charles Gray]

Not entirely correct. D20 is still by far the most dominant game, in terms of both number of items on the shelf and selling power.
But given that the license wsa free, inthe beginning, there were a tremendous number of companies that were releasing anything they could write, as well as companies, that, to put it bluntly, were not ready for prime time.
Now we're seeing the natural evolution-- stores and buyers are no longer picking up anything with the D20 logo, and so the companies that cannot produce professional level products are gradually being forced to evolve or leave the market.
D20 will still be the dominant (not only) force in the market, but distributors are now being a bit choosier-- the poorly edited and spelled 24 page pamphlet for 10 dollars, with the artwork by your really neat friend who can draw real cool will no longer get purchased-- they want something professional looking, and playing.
as for Star Trek-- more time needs to be taken with that. Ther've been several companies that have gotten the ST franchise, and started out great guns-- but a few years will see if Paramout can keep their hands off of it and permit it to grow.



Originally posted by wraith_2021
well, so much for the big D20, gaming stores are getting sick of the products, and distributors have taken the thing of, if it ain't brilliant and its D20 its not getting sold. This is the change i was hoping for, they are beginning to take abourd new gaming systems, and they are weighing the games up exactly the same, some distributors are plain refusing to do any more D20 stuff untill they have got rid of their old stock of D20 stuff.

Does this mean the end of D20?

No, it does mean that D20 will fall on the shelf besides any other game goodenough to make it out there. And i can see people thinking before they choose the D20 road ahead of them.

Another note, the startreck rpg was supposidly have ment to flopped cos it was not D20. well its taken off as far as i can tell, it just had a slow startup.

[brettmb]

Well, we'll see what D20 Modern does for WOTC. It should rejuvinate the monopoly machine.

This is a bit off topic, but I've been looking at some cool older games such as: Tales from the Floating Vagabond, James Bond, and Top Secret only to realize that they are now part of the horror of Hasbro. Oh well. :(

Also, now that West End Games has opened D6 to licensing, let's hope that some new games/companies start using it. I think that D6 is way better than D20. D20 may be light years ahead of older D&D systems, but it still suffers from clunky mechanics. Whereas, D6 is solid and simple. Too bad D6 isn't free, though.

[Charles Gray]

One thing other game system owners are going to have to realize is that D20 by its nature drives down what they can charge for their systems. In fact, I doubt many systems out there could get buy with
more than a token payment (which also grants the owning company more control over it).

Originally posted by brettmb
Also, now that West End Games has opened D6 to licensing, let's hope that some new games/companies start using it. I think that D6 is way better than D20. D20 may be light years ahead of older D&D systems, but it still suffers from clunky mechanics. Whereas, D6 is solid and simple. Too bad D6 isn't free, though.

[Dan Norder]

Originally posted by brettmb
Well, we'll see what D20 Modern does for WOTC. It should rejuvinate the monopoly machine.

Yeah, there probably will be yet more games through D20 Modern. It's the nature of the beast.

Also, now that West End Games has opened D6 to licensing, let's hope that some new games/companies start using it. I think that D6 is way better than D20. D20 may be light years ahead of older D&D systems, but it still suffers from clunky mechanics. Whereas, D6 is solid and simple. Too bad D6 isn't free, though.

I can't see D6 making a difference at all. If someone wanted to pay to license a system they always had the option before. WEG making a somewhat official announcement to that effect (I'm assuming they did based upon your comment, though I haven't heard anything about it) is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Are there even any current RPGs using D6 right now?

Dan Norder

[Bradford C. Walker]

D6 is a dead game engine. It has all of the complaints common to die pool engines, none of its former market presence, none of its former publisher support and it's not free for other publishers to use. This doesn't make for a worthy choice as a game engine, which is why I label it as "dead".

Some familiarity with the way that networks operate might help everyone's understanding. "The Economics of Networks" (http://www.stern.nyu.edu/networks/site.html) explains this quite well, albeit in the dry language common to academic papers. This (http://www.d20reviews.com/Interviews/interviews_danceyd20.htm) interview at EN World explains how it matters to gaming, the Open Gaming License and the D20 System Trademark License. Read, learn, understand.

[brettmb]

My previous point was that D6 could possibly compete only if it was free. As is stands D6 costs a minimum of $500/year to license. Star Wars D6 was so much better than D20.

I think we can all agree that D20 isn't going anywhere. It will be around longer than us. D20 Modern just increases the lifespan even longer.

D20 has incredible support. There are so many products available for it. Will people grow tired of it? Did they grow tired of Magic Cards?

We are all doomed to hear reports of D20 products being released forever. Everywhere I look, I see a D20 review or announcement. It is really annoying. And some excellent games are being converted to D20. [sigh...]

Someone had suggested that I add conversion rules for our (www.pigames.net) new sci-fi game (The Colonies) coming out Aug 1. I actually thought about it for a while. Then I came to my senses. What was I thinking? The rules were tailor made for the game. D20 could never even handle it.

Even I got caught up in it. They simply have the market share. That's why I call them the "Hasbro Horror Engine."

The moral of the story -- I'm willing to give D20 modern a chance. It's possible that they have fixed some of the problems that plague the system. Only time will tell.

[Charles Gray]

Why doomed? And why not release D20 conversion rules for your system? Remember, at its heart, all d20 is is a d20 resolution system. You don't need levels, or classes-- and if you want to go OGL, as opposed to also putting the D20 mark on it, you can make even more dramatic changes, as Godlike did in their OGL conversion.
Better yet, that provides a bridge for those who are D&D players, but might be interested in other games, if they can make the change fairly easily.
D20 has a few problems-- but no more than GURPS, Deadlands, or BESM-- and many of them are personal things-- I for instance think feats seem to jump between too powerful and useless, and more use should be made of skills (in fact in my games some feats have been turned into skills). Still, all in all, much of the problems of second edition have been solved, and the system is now modular enough that some of those problems that are still in can easily be removed without damaging the whole.
I think a big problem is that some people want to create a game based on d20 that is still compatible with 3ed D&D-- unless your doing a fantasy game, forget that. Balance it internally, and let the external balance take care of itself.


Originally posted by brettmb

We are all doomed to hear reports of D20 products being released forever. Everywhere I look, I see a D20 review or announcement. It is really annoying. And some excellent games are being converted to D20. [sigh...]

Someone had suggested that I add conversion rules for our (www.pigames.net) new sci-fi game (The Colonies) coming out Aug 1. I actually thought about it for a while. Then I came to my senses. What was I thinking? The rules were tailor made for the game. D20 could never even handle it.

Even I got caught up in it. They simply have the market share. That's why I call them the "Hasbro Horror Engine."

The moral of the story -- I'm willing to give D20 modern a chance. It's possible that they have fixed some of the problems that plague the system. Only time will tell.

[brettmb]

Doomed in the sense that D20 is all I see. I have to filter through all the D20 news to get to other stuff in which I am interested. Quite annoying.

As far as a conversion goes. It would take way too much effort. I just can't see it. If D20 Modern works well, I may use those rules as a conversion model. We'll see.

[Ashlin_Evenstar]

Heh, I guess I should have read this first. I posted something similar in the open forum.

Anyway... Let's just examine D20 vs. the World.

Pretend you are a local gaming store. You have X amount of dollars to spend each month (gaming stores have monthly budgets folks, that's how they opperate). You have to send so much of your X dollars on popular games such as Magic, DnD, World of Darkness, Warlord, Yu-gi-oh (uhg), and Legend of the Five Rings. After that, you have a small amount to spend on "indie" games. As a store owner you have narrowed your choices of indie games down to two. One uses a little known system that may or may not be used by other indie games (I use indie to refer to companies like Atlas, Goldrush, etc.). The other game you have narrowed it down to uses D20. Now, what matters most to a game shop owner. Ding! Money. When he looks at the two games he knows that the D20 game has a much higher probability of selling than the non-D20 game. Don't deny it, you know it's true. So, are very many game shops going to use a game with a non-D20 system if it's not Vampire or the like? Doubtful.

And that is what the first post is talking about. There is a total lack of variety out there not necessarily because WotC has personally mowed them over, it is because game shop owners (and managers) see D20 as a consistent way to make cash so they can feed their families.

I personally believe that a good, generic, RPG system that flows well and is not clunky (20 sided die are clunky in my oppinion) that has an OGL of its own can make a dent in D20. Comepletly over throw it? Nah, but dent if for sure. Do you think that a company like Decipher is going to put D20 rules in any current or future RPGs they make? Ha! Not likely. Do you think they might be interested in hooking up with an OGL from a competitor of WotC. Proabably.

So anyway, I guess that is more than 2 cents. Take it for what you will and please forgive the spelling errors.

Peace,

-Ash

[Charles Gray]

An OGL system would work nicely-- because there are things that D20 just cannot do as well as other systems-- any point based system would have to be OGL (since you cannot include character creation info in a d20 product) and that would involve a pretty complete rewrite.

But beyond the system, it would also have to have some other factors. For one thing, like D20, there would have to be a simple agreement that would allow you to immediately start publication. Some of the smaller systems might alllow you to license them-- but they don't have a lot of people and in fact just getting back to you could take forever.

for another, nobody is going to pay for a system right now-- so it would have to be free.

Originally posted by Ashlin_Evenstar
Heh, I guess I should have read this first. I posted something similar in the open forum.

I personally believe that a good, generic, RPG system that flows well and is not clunky (20 sided die are clunky in my oppinion) that has an OGL of its own can make a dent in D20. Comepletly over throw it? Nah, but dent if for sure. Do you think that a company like Decipher is going to put D20 rules in any current or future RPGs they make? Ha! Not likely. Do you think they might be interested in hooking up with an OGL from a competitor of WotC. Proabably.

So anyway, I guess that is more than 2 cents. Take it for what you will and please forgive the spelling errors.

Peace,

-Ash

[spidral]

Chaosium is reprinting Basic Roleplaying this summer.
http://www.chaosium.com/brp/index.shtml
There's a quick, playable, eminently mutatable system that could be used as the basis for just about anything you'd want to do - and it's play-tested & time-tested...and won lots of awards for Call of Cthulhu to boot.
Just an idea.
Why waste time building more wheels when what we really need to do is start driving?
Be Well,
spidral

[Dan Norder]

I don't get it. Is Chaosium releasing BRP as a free, open license set of rules?

If not, why do you think this is going to have any effect on the RPG market as a whole?

As far as it being playtested and time-tested, personally I think the only reason it's survived as long as it did is that the main game using it, Call of Cthulhu, doesn't need to adequately model anything other than characters who get utterly destroyed by cosmic beings. Balance doesn't mater because you are already outgunned. Superpowers and magic don't matter because you don't have access to most of them -- and the ones you do blow up in your face and melt out your eyeballs and that's considered staying true to the theme of the game.

The failure of Runequest and Superworld (I think that was the super hero game using BRP rules) to get anywhere is pretty good proof that the BRP system isn't all that useful to other RPGs, in my not so humble opinion anyway.

Dan Norder
Inklings Press

[brettmb]

I own Runequest and two editions each of Call of Cthulhu and Pendragon. I think that they are all great games. But, I don't particularly like the system. That's just me.

I can't see it being a threat to D20. The market is too saturated with D20. If people wanted to use the system, they'd probably play Runequest.

[James Hargrove]

Originally posted by spidral
Chaosium is reprinting Basic Roleplaying this summer.


That's fantastic (BRP is one of my favorite systems), but I don't see it seriously challenging d20. What a majority of the gaming public seems to want right now is a system that is built to accomodate high adventure. When people tire of high adventure and are in the mood for more grounded roleplay, they'll probably turn toward BRP or GURPS in troves, but until that time (which is probably a loooooong way off) I suspect that d20 will pretty much corner the market.

[Charles Gray]

I don't know--- It depends on if there are any D20 products out there that take full advantage of the license to lose their attachment to the fantasy end of D20. You could make a very credible attempt at a modern/hard scifi game if so-- but it wouldn't be "compatable" with D&D except in the loosest sense that it still used the D20 rules mechanics.
I will grant you, that if you want a point based creation system you would have to go OGL-- the license wouldn't allow you to put D20 on it-- but there are loads of ways to insure people know about its compatibility and still abide by the license.


Originally posted by James Hargrove


That's fantastic (BRP is one of my favorite systems), but I don't see it seriously challenging d20. What a majority of the gaming public seems to want right now is a system that is built to accomodate high adventure. When people tire of high adventure and are in the mood for more grounded roleplay, they'll probably turn toward BRP or GURPS in troves, but until that time (which is probably a loooooong way off) I suspect that d20 will pretty much corner the market.

[James Hargrove]

<b>I don't know--- It depends on if there are any D20 products out there that take full advantage of the license to lose their attachment to the fantasy end of D20. </b>

Oh, I whole-heartedly agree with you. At the present time, however, it seems that no d20 publisher is really willing to do this (probably for the reason that the core d20 audience appears to be composed primarily of people who are interested in high adventure).

NOTE: When I use the term "high-adventure", I do not mean to imply that it is linked to a certain genre (eg. fantasy). When I use the term "high adventure", I simply refer to games that model the physics and realities of fiction as opposed to fact.

[Charles Gray]

Originally posted by James Hargrove
<b>I don't know--- It depends on if there are any D20 products out there that take full advantage of the license to lose their attachment to the fantasy end of D20. </b>

.

NOTE: When I use the term "high-adventure", I do not mean to imply that it is linked to a certain genre (eg. fantasy). When I use the term "high adventure", I simply refer to games that model the physics and realities of fiction as opposed to fact.

I agree with that-- a crying example would be the hit point system-- even in the more "realistic" games, teh hit point or wound point/vitality system doesn't even come close to a hard sci-fi feel. But... if anyone actually tried to create a new system that would work, they would have to make it pretty much incompatible with the great run of the games out there.
So far, the only people I know of who have done this is the GODLIKE crew, with their OGC appendix to their game. IMHO, while it does have some quibble factors, it's an excellent signpost towards more "high reality" games.

[MicroTactix]

It would seem to me that to be useful to those who would like to publish under something other than D20. a system would have to have the following attributes...

NO ROYALTIES - Publishers pay no fees or royalties, now or ever -- whether just putting up a web page about a campaign, or producing printed or electronic books for sale!

NO NOTIFICATIONS -Publishers need not return any license paperwork or notify anyone when they accept the license.

PLAIN ENGLISH LICENSE - The primary license is a plain English document that is easy to understand and comply with, even if you aren't a lawyer.

NO PURCHASE NECESSARY - There is no requirement for a player or gamemaster to purchase something else to use a licensed product.

IDENTITY LOGOS - Publishers are allowed to use the primary trademark and logo identified with the system on licensed products.

COMPLETE ENVIRONMENT - The system supports adventure gaming at all levels, including simple or advanced role playing, mass combat, detailed tactical combat, and more.

SUPPORT FROM LICENSING COMPANY - The licensing company helps to publicize licensed material, acknowledging it and linking it from their own website.

If that's the sort of thing one is looking for, might I humbly suggest checking out the following URL:

http://www.microtactix.com/plainlabel/

[Evan Waters]

Consciously setting out to try and "overthrow" the system for the top-selling game on the market seems doomed to failure. You can't do reverse marketing in this hobby- too much is based on personal taste. If you come up with a game you think people will like, fine, but don't worry about overthrowing the Grand Poobah.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by MicroTactix
It would seem to me that to be useful to those who would like to publish under something other than D20. a system would have to have the following attributes...

NO ROYALTIES - Publishers pay no fees or royalties, now or ever -- whether just putting up a web page about a campaign, or producing printed or electronic books for sale!

NO NOTIFICATIONS -Publishers need not return any license paperwork or notify anyone when they accept the license.

PLAIN ENGLISH LICENSE - The primary license is a plain English document that is easy to understand and comply with, even if you aren't a lawyer.

NO PURCHASE NECESSARY - There is no requirement for a player or gamemaster to purchase something else to use a licensed product.

IDENTITY LOGOS - Publishers are allowed to use the primary trademark and logo identified with the system on licensed products.

COMPLETE ENVIRONMENT - The system supports adventure gaming at all levels, including simple or advanced role playing, mass combat, detailed tactical combat, and more.

SUPPORT FROM LICENSING COMPANY - The licensing company helps to publicize licensed material, acknowledging it and linking it from their own website.

If that's the sort of thing one is looking for, might I humbly suggest checking out the following URL:

<p><a href="http://www.action-syste,com"><img src="http://www.goldrushgames.com/action/images/action-banner06.jpg"></a>

<p>Doh! ;)

[MicroTactix]

Hey, Mark...

If you want me to write your ads for you, you really ought to PAY me!

Sheesh. That's the problem with this industry... no originality!

;)

Seriously, though, there seem to be a number of alternatives popping up. D20 is not the only way to go by a long shot. That pleases me, because I believe that diversity, not conformity, is the way to ensure the industry's long-term health.

I'll be interested to see what the final Action! System license looks like; the temporary license now available is only for non-commercial publication, but I understand that will change when the final license is available, yes?

But when did the Action! System get miniatures rules? :p

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by MicroTactix
Hey, Mark...
If you want me to write your ads for you, you really ought to PAY me!
Sheesh. That's the problem with this industry... no originality!
;)

<LOL> I'll send you a PayPal payment.

Okay, okay, so it was rather slimey. I apologize.

EVERYONE GO BUY MICROTAXTIX PLAIN LABEL GAME! IT ROCKS!

There. You get a promotional quote in return for the ad copy. ;)

Seriously, though, there seem to be a number of alternatives popping up. D20 is not the only way to go by a long shot. That pleases me, because I believe that diversity, not conformity, is the way to ensure the industry's long-term health.

Agreed.

I'll be interested to see what the final Action! System license looks like; the temporary license now available is only for non-commercial publication, but I understand that will change when the final license is available, yes?

Absolutely.

But when did the Action! System get miniatures rules? :p

<a href="http://www.firefly-games.com/games.shtml">Monster Island: The Game of Giant Monster Combat</a> is now available. It's essentially a miniatures game, what with the combat rules and cardstock cut-out monsters and all. ;)

[TheVorpalRabbit]

It think that if you really want to play with the d20system, then you first need a 20 sided die.

[Ashlin_Evenstar]

Actually, I don't think that a "Free, just download it off the net" type game will over go over big with the general gaming public. 1st, it requires the interenet - Barrier 1. 2nd, requires printing a sizable document (since many gamers are lazy or have parents who don't want their ink wasted on such things it's...) - Barrier 2. 3rd, Keeping track of many loose sheets is hard. You can have it bound, but finding a place that does that and having the initiative to do so brings us to - Barrier 3. 4th, if something costs money it has value. Therefore the perception of something free is that it has no value - Barrier 4. 5th, Things that are Free and/or Web-Based are rarely supported very well (I am aware of the exceptions but the only prove the rule). -Barrier 5.

A system with an OGL will have to be raidically different from D20, but still contain things like levels and classes (which is what the majority of gamers prefer) but be published by a major company who is willing to charge people to buy the books (not necessarily charge to use the license) and support the game in Cons and stores.

That's my thoughts anyway. Take 'em for what you will :)

Peace,

-Ashl

[Dan Norder]

Originally posted by Ashlin_Evenstar
A system with an OGL will have to be raidically different from D20, but still contain things like levels and classes (which is what the majority of gamers prefer)

Groan... :rolleyes:

Classes and levels are horribly outdated and obsolete concepts in RPGs. I really rather doubt most people prefer this. Most people play games like D&D and don't branch out, therefore using classes and levels by default and not because they prefer it.

Besides which, how do you compete against D20? By doing things differently. Players and designers who actually prefer classes and levels have absolutely no reason to try a game system other than d20.

Anyone trying to release a new OGL RPG system using classes and levels is just shooting themselves in the foot. It's like deciding we need a new operating system for computers and then making it as crash-prone, difficult to use, buggy, and expensive as Windows.

but be published by a major company who is willing to charge people to buy the books (not necessarily charge to use the license) and support the game in Cons and stores.

So far this points to the Action! System as being the second most popular open game system. I don't know if Gold Rush Games counts as a major company yet, but it's the most major of anyone releasing an open game system next to WotC. Not bad for one just starting out.

Dan Norder
Inklings Press

[Gold Rush Games]

Also, one <B>could</B> release an Extension (optional add-on rule) for levels in <a href="http://www.action-system.com"><I>Action! System</I></url>.

<p>Just a thought.

<p><a href="http://www.goldrushgames.com/d20system.html"><img src="http://www.goldrushgames.com/images/d20/d20btn01.jpg"></a>

<p>

[cmdicely]

Originally posted by Dan Norder
Originally posted by Ashlin_Evenstar
A system with an OGL will have to be raidically different from D20, but still contain things like levels and classes (which is what the majority of gamers prefer)

Groan... :rolleyes:

Classes and levels are horribly outdated and obsolete concepts in RPGs.

And yet, in different forms, they are used by many popular RPGs -- d20, of course, but Storyteller has aspects that fill the roll of classes and levels; L5R is a strict class-and-level game, etc.

I really rather doubt most people prefer this. Most people play games like D&D and don't branch out, therefore using classes and levels by default and not because they prefer it.

This presumes that people fail to branch out without choosing it.

Besides which, how do you compete against D20?

By making the game different than d20 in play. Character creation and advancement isn't the whole of an RPG.

By doing things differently. Players and designers who actually prefer classes and levels have absolutely no reason to try a game system other than d20.

This would be true if "game system" meant "character creation and advancement system" and nothing else.

Anyone trying to release a new OGL RPG system using classes and levels is just shooting themselves in the foot.

Well, in that an OGL system probably is only economically beneficial if you happen to be the market leader, regardless of its features. Nothing special about class-and-level.

It's like deciding we need a new operating system for computers and then making it as crash-prone, difficult to use, buggy, and expensive as Windows.

No, its like designing a new OS, and deciding it should by default have a GUI shell with a dockable quick-launch bar.

[Bradford C. Walker]

Note how well the efforts to supplant Windows faired to date, and how well the current ones fair; Windows won't lose its top spot anytime soon. So it is with D20.

[Tim Gray]

CM Dicely:
And yet, in different forms, they are used by many popular RPGs -- d20, of course, but Storyteller has aspects that fill the roll of classes and levels;
No, it really doesn't. It has abilities with numerically measured levels, but those apply to that ability rather than the whole character. As for classes: maybe for Vampire and Werewolf (roles/niches that steer you in a general direction), definitely not for Mage and Wraith.

And I think you'll find that's "role" ;)

[RichGarner]

At the risk of plugging, my company recently released our d6 system for free public development. It's a very simple system and we are out to make loads of money. We just want to help gamers find a simple system that allows them to enjoy the gameing expeiriance better. We hope the "Halo" system does this.

Enjoy,
Rich Garner

http://www.eternaltempest.com

[RichGarner]

forgive me...
"We are NOT out to make loads of money."
(That's what I get for editing on the fly without my hourly injection of Dew.)

Enjoy,
Rich Garner

[Gold Rush Games]

<p><a href="http://www.action-system.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.goldrushgames.com/action/images/action-banner06.jpg"></a>

<p>The question has been asked several times on the <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/action-system/join"><b>Action! System</b> list</a>.

<p>The current answer, which may be of interest to folks posting to and reading this thread, is:

<p>You can copy and paste <b>all</b> of the text if...

<p>1) ...you also include original game setting material of your own, making it a new and unique game. (Example: You could copy and paste the entire RTF document, add background info for a sci-fi setting, customize the skill list for your world, etc., and call it a "new sci-fi RPG").

<p>or

<p>2) ...you translate it, in its entirety, to a foreign language but do <b>not</b> add or omit any material. (example: you could translate the entire RTF document into Spanish, without omitting or adding any other new text--translation only is allowed--and release the game as a Spanish language version of the <b>Action! System Core Rules</b>.)

<p>or

<p>3) ...you translate it into a foreign language <b>and</b> include original game setting material of your own (making it a new and unique game)

<p>plus

<p>A) ...you include the required legal text (as stated in the ASTL), giving proper credit and copyright/trademark notice

<p>and

<p>B) ...you use the <b>Action! System</b>, <b>Action! Ready</b> or <b>Action! Packed</b> logo (as per the ASTL and definitions of each listed on the web site).

<p>and

<p>C) ...you do not change the definition of any attributes or other terms defined in the glossary

<p>and

<p>D) ...you clearly identify any Variants or Extensions you create and add to the rules, <b>and</b> provide conversion notes to make the product compatible with the Action! System Core Rules book. (Example: you could include a new Attribute Group, but would have to include a blurb in the book about how to use your game/rules with only the Body and Mind Groups, so that people who do not want to use the new attribute group don't have to but can still use your other material).

<p>and

<p>E) ...you do <b>not</b> include the words "Action" or "Core Rules" in the main title (the subtitle is fine, though), except for translations, which <i>may</i> use "Action!" in the title (in fact, it would <i>have</i> to use the translation of "Action! System" for the title to be compliant).

<p>I hope this helps clear things up and may make <a href="http://www.action-system.com" target="_blank"><b>Action! System</b></a> of potential interest to some would-be game publishers out there.

[TheGame]

I have read through this thread a couple of times now and looked at all the systems and licenses; so I guess it my turn.

I have noticed almost if not all of the systems use only d6.
All the systems have a "Open Game" style license.
All the systems "look" like a combination of the D6 and GURPS Systems.


First, why go and make ANOTHER "Open Game" style License. Why not release your rules under the Open Game License Provided by WoTC?

Second, Why make a system that looks and feels JUST like two systems that didn't quite make it.
Why not add your rules to the overall SRD and bedone with it?

Lastly, for now. If you believe Using only d6 is the best way to go, then;
Why not use what WoTC has given you, modify it so that it uses only d6?

My Point is as you can tell, if you want to "Overthrow" d20, then;
Why not allow WoTC's generosity shoot them in the foot.

I am currently working on a Open Game System that does exactly that. I'm using the Mechanics I like and tossing the mechanic I don't. Release my stuff as true Open Game, the System Logo and all. No restrictions what so ever.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by TheGame
I have noticed almost if not all of the systems use only d6.
All the systems have a "Open Game" style license.

No. If you study the various licenses, not all of the systems have an Open System license.

All the systems "look" like a combination of the D6 and GURPS Systems.

True, to a degree. See the FAQ page on htttp://www.action-system.com for my take on the similarity of various systems (specifically as it releates to Action! System, but still relevent).

First, why go and make ANOTHER "Open Game" style License. Why not release your rules under the Open Game License Provided by WoTC?

Because the OGL does not provide everything that some people want or need in a system license. One cannot publish character creation rules, for example, but the Action! System license allows it.

Second, Why make a system that looks and feels JUST like two systems that didn't quite make it.

First off, one can hardly say that GURPS did not "make it."

Second, what you describe was not the rationale nor intent of the design of Action! System (I can't speak for other system publishers, though).

Why not use what WoTC has given you, modify it so that it uses only d6?

Why do that when we can use a system that we created and we own and does what we want better than the d20 System? Why use a system that is more complicated than we want and whose license is too restrictive for something that we can use the Action! System for?

For some publishers the d20 System is perfect, and that's great! For some it's the Tri-Stat System. For some, GURPS. For others, the d6 System from WEG. And so on, ad nauseum. It's largely a matter of taste. In some case it's a matter of financial incentives. For some it's a matter of the system itself (which one is best for a given setting or genre?).

My Point is as you can tell, if you want to "Overthrow" d20, then; Why not allow WoTC's generosity shoot them in the foot.

Meaning what, exactly?

One can't publish an RPG with chargen and effects of gaining experience in the rules under the OGL. The OGL "requires" the use of a Core Rulesbook published by WotC. Action! System allows you to publish the Action! System Core Rules in their entirety in your own RPG book (with new, original content) or even as a stand-alone product (if the text is not altered).

I am currently working on a Open Game System that does exactly that.

Why not use what WoTC has given you, modify it so that it uses only d6? ;)

[moogspaceport]

I think the OGL, in principle, is a fantastic idea. I too have reservations about the legal ramifications of it, but I think an open-sourced gaming license is a good idea. As far as overthrowing the D20 system goes, I think the market will sort it all out. While many new gamers will probably go to D20 products first, because of their availability, they will soon enough know about the wealth of other systems out there. Variety IS the spice of life, and the D&D juggernaut will always have healthy competition.

[Charles Gray]

Quite honestly, I love the D20 OGC concept-- but it does have some limitations.
D20 still isn't really set up for hard reality, or superhero, due to the level system (IMHO), and the requirement that you not include character creation info makes it hard to avoid that.
You can include character creation info, if you simply go with the OGL license, not the d20-- but then you've basically stripped it down to a simple d20 resolution system.
Due to that, there will always be room for other systems, simply because things like point based systems handle certain types of games better.

[TheGame]

Under the OGL, you CAN do just about anything you want. Including Character Creation, XP, Level advancement. You just can't say it's d20. The OGL has very few restrictions, the d20 trademark license is what restricts you.

In fact it's the d20 trademark that I can't stand and is the only reason I started BOGS (Basic Open Game System) in the first place.

Why aren't you using a true Open Game License, even Action Systems has its restrictions. Personally the Advantage/Disadvantage system doesn't appeal to me. I don't want to spend an hour wading thru Advantages and Disadvantages trying to keep track of how many points I have left.

In deconstructing d20 and other RPGs, you'll notice that modifers make the game go. In d20 the Ability scores, Skill, Feats, Classes, Races, equipment, etc. provide those modifiers in a blanket form. In all these other systems the Advanages/Disadvantages provide those modifiers in a more customizable form. It wouldn't be that hard to modify the SRD and ultimately d20 to be classless (being that, that seems to be a major grievence about d20), providing ultimate customability.

In fact every RPG works mechanically the same, the difference is up the system designer. For example:
Task Resolution:
Modified dice Roll vs. Target#

d20= 1d20+modifier vs. T#
Other systems=Modified # of base die (d6, d10, etc.) vs. T#


BTW
My system will not use only d6. ;)

[Charles Gray]

Is that you get to the point where you don't have the same game system any more.
While the requirement that character creation info not be included is market driven, it also has another advanage, in that nearly any D20 game is compatible with any other. Judge Dredd, Silver Age Sentinals, any game could be fitted into a D&D game with far less mucking about then it would say, take to shoehorn a GURPs game into D&D.
In fact, this has been one of the big things driving sales-- the fact that even if you don't have a need now, you can use it later.
This is one of the reasons why I'm leery of too many modifications under the same name. I like Action! (and when is it going to reach the game stores, hmmm?), Fuzion, Gurps and D20-- but they all have the advantage that when you see their logo, you know that there is a good deal of compatability with other games in that same line. Making a game too pick and choose might end that, and then you will (not might, will) get players who are angry that the game they bought isn't compatible with the rest of their mateiral.

[TheGame]

Not to make enemies, but lets take Action for example.

Action is almost a classless d20 with different terms. I can post a crude break down of the similarity.

I'm not trying to step on any toes here. I'm just saying the d20 systematically works the same way as most other systems, Action included.

Slight modification to the d20 SRD and you have a system that functions just like Action.


Note: I'm not intentionally picking on Action, in fact I like the system. It's just that Action is the BIG system that, I guess is supposed to give d20 a run for its money and therefore is the easiest to reference.

[Gold Rush Games]

Pardon the late reply. Been busy.

Originally posted by TheGame
Not to make enemies, but lets take Action for example.
Action is almost a classless d20 with different terms. I can post a crude break down of the similarity.

No need. I've already addressed the fact that many game systems are similar. It's the nature of the beast. There are only so many ways to do "X" in an RPG. In fact, it's fair to say that the d20 System is very much like Fuzion (which predates d20 by several years), which has similarities to Hero System, which has similarities to GURPS, which has similarities to... It's endless and not worth debating, IMO.

I'm not trying to step on any toes here. I'm just saying the d20 systematically works the same way as most other systems, Action included.
Agreed.

Slight modification to the d20 SRD and you have a system that functions just like Action.
Ah, but you can't alter the SRD. Only WotC can do that. So what you have left is a set of "rules" that have many restrictions on the use of. Add to those even more restrictions under the d20 STL and what's left is a restrictive system that doesn't satisfy everyone's needs.

Enter other systems, such as Action! System.

Note: I'm not intentionally picking on Action, in fact I like the system. It's just that Action is the BIG system that, I guess is supposed to give d20 a run for its money and therefore is the easiest to reference.
It's an option. Period. Some people like it and will use it. Some don't like it and/or won't use it. It's been that way since RPGs came into being.

[Patrick Chipman]

Here's a few notes on this extremely long-lived thread.

Because the OGL does not provide everything that some people want or need in a system license. One cannot publish character creation rules, for example, but the Action! System license allows it.

That's not true. The OGL lets you publish whatever you wish, and lets you use the SRD -- whatever parts you like -- to boot. Of course, you can't publish chargen or advancement rules in an STL game, and you can't use such texts if you lift them out of the PHB or DMG (which means you have to write them yourself), but there's no particular limitation in the OGL in that regard.

The OGL's major limitation is its completely viral nature and the fact that no credit needs to be given when open game content is recopied. The GNU Free Documentation License isn't entirely viral, and requires credit be given. It's also backed by the GNU project and the FSF. For those reasons, I prefer the GFDL, which I believe has been found to be compatible, more or less, with the OGL.

In fact every RPG works mechanically the same, the difference is up the system designer.

That's not entirely true. Most RPGs, of course, do use the variable dice-variable difficulty system, wherein you shoot for a target number that the GM decides. There are, of course, variations on this theme, including fixed difficulty systems, systems where the difficulty slides based on the skill value, etc. Most of these systems, while in the end involve rolling against some difficulty, are highly divergent from the more common mechanic.

The argument that all other open games use d6 is false. They also don't all look like GURPS. Examples of this include FUDGE (http://www.fudgerpg.com) and System X (http://www.realitywerks.com/systemx). FUDGE uses specialized dice and descriptors; System X uses a sliding difficulty system rooted in a chart and doesn't even have an ad/disad system by default. Of course, both of those are metasystems, used for creating other systems.

Right, then, I'll return everyone to their regularly scheduled argument.

[Gold Rush Games]

You're right about the OGL (well, partly right). It is restrictive, because it has restrictions. I was referring in part to the d20 STL, which many people do seem to mistakenly lump in with the OGL.

[TheGame]

I suppose I could reply.

By mechanically I mean. Task resolution.
Modified Dice roll Vs. Target #

Dice Pool: Modifies the number of Dice rolled. (Storyteller, D6)
Dice Total: Modifies the result of the roll. (d20, Action)

There aren't too many RPG systems that stray from these methods. There are some I'm sure, but not many.

[Gold Rush Games]

Good point.

Btw, for folks wanting to use the d20 System without the d20 STL, check out http://www.twentysiders.com <LOL>

[TheGame]

How does this help, by giving us a unified Trademark?
That's all it gives.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by TheGame
How does this help, by giving us a unified Trademark?
That's all it gives.

And this is a bad thing...? I'm not sure I understand your complaint. You're disappointed because a logo doesn't d anything more than be a logo? What would you like to see it do, precisely? ;)

[SmegMOnkey]

The system that I use, I love to bits, Its :

Attributes are rated on 1-20

2D10, roll under.. skills make it easier...

Its so simple its not funny...

[EDIT : I play heaps of different stuff though.. thats just the one I use for my games]

[Gold Rush Games]

Hm. That sounds like an interesting Variant for Action! System.

But I digress...

[SmegMOnkey]

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games
Hm. That sounds like an interesting Variant for Action! System.

But I digress...

never actually read or seen the action! system..

But I digress as well...

back on topic....

[TheGame]

It's not a complaint per se. I'm just saying, it isn't going to make any difference whether you use the 20 sider logo, the Action logo, or even my BOGS logo. d20 at it's current stage is too big, you need something else pushing your product.

the Everquest RPG is a perfect example. It will sell because it's Everquest and it's not d20, it uses the OGL.

My point being unless you have more than a logo (other than d20 system), you'll have a hard time selling your game.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by TheGame
It's not a complaint per se. I'm just saying, it isn't going to make any difference whether you use the 20 sider logo, the Action logo, or even my BOGS logo.

I disagree. Branding is important to a publisher, and to consumers as well. Of course, it can work for you or against you, depending on the perception of the brand. ;)

d20 at it's current stage is too big, you need something else pushing your product.
No argument here. I know a number of d20 publishers are selling fewer than 1,500 copies of their books on release. That's not too good, especially when comparing those numbers to the 4,000-6,000+ units sold of the earlier, 2001, releases.

I think the d20 market in particular, and the market in general, has become saturated, to the point that sales of all products are suffering as a result.

the Everquest RPG is a perfect example. It will sell because it's Everquest and it's not d20, it uses the OGL.
Definitely. But in that case I doubt if the d20 brand is doing much to increase sales. They could have released it in another system and I don;t think their sales would suffer too much as a result. I could be wrong, I admit. It's a gut feeling.

My point being unless you have more than a logo (other than d20 system), you'll have a hard time selling your game.
That goes without saying, regardless of what game system and logo is associated with the product. ;)

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

While some of the points put forth in this thread, and others that set out to preach the horrors and evils of d20, are cogent in their presentation, no matter their stance in the debate, many others falsely seek to put forth personal opinion and taste as fact.

For instance, saying that d20 stifles creativity is pure bunk, as is saying that it is wrecking the rpg industry (comments taken from the Why Hate D20? thread, for instance). Rules don't make or break the creativity of a writer, artist, publisher, GM, or player, they are simply the tool by which creativity is expressed in the game's context.

Just as you can have a DnD game that is all hack n' slash and take their stuff, as, admittedly, the system makes so easy to do, so too can you play a game where combat takes the back seat. Remember, you don't actually have to kill the enemy to get your XP, merely defeat it (this means that yes, a GM can give you the XP for negotiating your way around an encounter or for subduing, not slaying). Of course, in DnD, as in any game, if this actually happens is up to the people involved and not the rules.



Similarly, you can take a game like Palladium that gives more XP for non-combat related events and yet never have players earn those because they still just want to hack n' slash. Or take Vampire, a game that uses the "Storyteller" system, a rules system that very pointedly communicates that it is for "roleplayers" and not "rollplayers", and yet it's very easy to turn a game into a bunch of vampire gangers going around blowing each other up, immolating their enemies in their coffins, and driving stakes through their hearts, rather than sticking to the system's supposed "roleplaying" mantra. In fact, White Wolf later acknowledges this somewhat in lines such as "Hunter".



d20, like any system, is *only* a game mechanic. It has no effect on the background I, as a writer, give my setting, my characters, my equipment, my dimensions, etc., it would only be the system through which this is communicated and would only limit that communication to the extent by which I allowed this to happen, especially considering the simple fact that you can always customize things beyond what the d20 STL demands (if you choose to publish under that). Look at some of the very imaginative books that have thus far been put out under the d20 rules: Spycraft springs to mind right away. This setting uses the d20 system utilizing some very CREATIVE customization of the rules and presents a very CREATIVE setting to boot.



People may not like the system, people may choose not to play it, and people may choose not to support it, either by producing d20 products or by purchasing them, but please don't say that d20 automatically means that anyone involved with the latter is an unimaginative dullard who doesn't have the capacity or the ability to play with the people who "know the truth about what roleplaying is all about." Elitism is not appreciated, warranted, nor supported by fact. For the most part, the arguements against d20 are mirrored by people who speak out against mainstream music, saying that top 40 tunes, because they are popular and sell well, are therefor automatically crap and unworthy of those musicians who are "true artists".

[Charles Gray]

Originally posted by Steve Conan Trustrum
While some of the points put forth in this thread, and others that set out to preach the horrors and evils of d20, are cogent in their presentation, no matter their stance in the debate, many others falsely seek to put forth personal opinion and taste as fact.

For instance, saying that d20 stifles creativity is pure bunk, as is saying that it is wrecking the rpg industry (comments taken from the Why Hate D20? thread, for instance). Rules don't make or break the creativity of a writer, artist, publisher, GM, or player, they are simply the tool by which creativity is expressed in the game's context.

this is true-- and some of those who dislike D20 forget that part of the reason many D20 products were initially put out was to be compatiable with D&D 3rd ed.
Obviously, if you're selling a product targeted to people based on the idea of compatability, you will have to be careful before changing it too much.
The core D20 mechanism is just a mechanism. Now, i will say that if you want to go and change it to a point based, or leveless system (and use the OGL rather then D20 license), it's wise to let people know-- so they don't take it thinking it can be used for D&D.

But quite Honestly, D20 has helped, not hurt the creativity of the gaming community. Let's look right now. We have Judge Dredd, iron Kingdoms, Kingdoms of Kalemar, all the mongoose supplements, Deadlands, Weird Wars... Godlike (the OGL appendix), and spycraft.

All of them are very different, giving you a tremendous amount of choice. Before D20-- you'd have maybe a few of these...using "Uncle Earles kewl gaming system"-- or to be less caustic, a well done gaming system that was still borne becuase it was not even partially compatiable with the largest market share, and thus lost out on shelf space and players, unless the company was one of those few rich enough to fund a large scale development and publicity campaign.

For those fearing that D20 will destroy all game systems, Gurps, Fuzion, and rifts are all around, Storyteller certainly seems healthy, and Action! is a new system that uses the OGL concept.
In some respects, the market ismore diverse then it's been at any point in the last ten years, both from a market and developers position.

[cao77]

As for forming an independant conglomerate; it's an entirely plausible idea with one hitch that could possibly drag revenues down. I think we can all agree that D20 is a juggernaut in and of itself. A new conglomerate/consortium would have to do some heavy initial marketing for product awareness and promotion. The companies supporting this new system would have to help contribute to a marketing fund (consortium run) for the new system as well as their own marketing for their products. This presents one of two options: (a) raise the price of your books, or (b) trim your profit margin. Albeit, if the system takes off, marketing via the consortium can be reduced due to the product awareness in the market being established. I do believe that establishing a competitive core system will work.

I'll stop here because, honestly, I have lost my train of thought.

[Seanchai]

Originally posted by cao77
I think we can all agree that D20 is a juggernaut in and of itself.

Nope. One of the typical alarmist strategies is to paint d20 as something new and menacing. While in one sense it certain is new, most elements are not - among these are a top heavy industry, purchasing via name or brand recognition, and the bloom and subsequent death of fly-by-night companies.

Consider our average gamer. He plays D&D and purchases TSR/WotC products. He probably also owns and plays one other system - Storyteller or GURPs, I'd wager. For the most part, the Open Gaming License hasn't changed the games he plays or much of what he purchases.

Nor has it changed the relative ranking of companies within the industry. WotC is number one. We have a number of companies after that, then a few stragglers. The companies that were doing well are still doing well.

And I have yet to hear about any bankruptcies that have come about because of d20 and, for the most part, d20 hasn't created millionaires.

Good products still sell and bad products still do not. Well made games attract fans; poorly made ones do not. Fans of high concept games still purchase high concept games, fans of indie games still purchase indie games, and D&D players still buy D&D.

Has d20 had an impact on the industry? You bet. Is it a juggernaut? Nope. The lay of the land is still pretty much the same. There are some exceptions - Mongoose comes to mind - but we're still dealing with the same basic situation that we were dealing the same basic stuff (save for the self-cannibalizing D&D niche has been blown open).

That's how I see it.

Originally posted by cao77
new conglomerate/consortium would have to do some heavy initial marketing for product awareness and promotion. The companies supporting this new system would have to help contribute to a marketing fund (consortium run) for the new system as well as their own marketing for their products.

Companies have always managed to market their products despite competition in the form of the market's top dog TSR and other smaller poodles and basset hounds. Things are no different today. The good folks who put out Nobalas: The Pretending don't have to compete with the d20 publishers save in terms of space as the d20 customers will pay attention to d20 ads and the high concept fans will pay attention to those ads.

Seanchai

[TheGame]

whelp, I agree.

[cao77]

What I was trying to say was that D20 has evolved into a large segment of the industry. Many new publishers have been able to enter into the industry by developing titles for D20. The word 'juggernaut' was the wrong word. Now, if a consortium is going to put out a common system, they are going to have to try to wrangle some shelf space from all of the D20 publishers as you have pointed out Seanchai. A consortium led marketing program to get some of that shelf space would be a wise idea. Maybe I am wrong and companies wouldn't have to give money to the consortium for marketing. Then again, I haven't found any recent post-D20 industry figures to back up my own or anyone else's assumptions.

I personally do not have anything against the D20 system ( I like it and use it!) and truly was not attempting to sound like an 'alarmist'.

[Seanchai]

Originally posted by cao77
Many new publishers have been able to enter into the industry by developing titles for D20.

In one sense, sure. However, how many of these new companies are now producing non-d20 stuff? How many are strong players in the d20 section of the industry? How many of them actually print products instead of releasing them electronically? How many are still around?

There have been a lot of little companies that started up, put out a supplement or two, and died. Or started up and have yet to get to print. The big names in the d20 field are companies that have been around for take. (Again, there are exceptions like Mongoose...)

Originally posted by cao77
Now, if a consortium is going to put out a common system, they are going to have to try to wrangle some shelf space from all of the D20 publishers as you have pointed out Seanchai.

I can't speak to shelf space much as I only visit one store or buy online. In that one store, D&D and d20 materials take up three to four out of ten or so "stands." I've heard here that it's harder for a d20 product to get picked up than a non-d20 product, but...shrug.

Seanchai

[Lacertys]

Heres how it works.
D&D is recognizably the first rpg system ever conceived and with that comes some fan-honor. I am of course speaking of the original Ad&d system. Wizards bought TSR and (well for lack of better words) tore it to shreds. Im not saying Ad&d was perfect, but it was a hell of alot better than the new D&D.
They made it sleeker, easier (at least in concept) and more consumable for the younger market (remember most new RPGers got their start playing games like magic, hint hint). But ultimately this kind of personal betrayal doesent get very far, for example most people who started playing magic: the gathering arent playing now, because they were constantly being overwhelmed by ever growing expansions and lost a love for the core game. The strategy that is being employed by the D20 system is useful when trying to gain profitable gain through firt-timers. Any true roleplayers who play the game for more than 2 sessions (if they get that far) find that they are in fact playing diablo or everquest on paper (however without the visuals and presets). The OGL is also a great marketing scheme in killing competition, by placing all competetors under one umbrella.

Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies even closer.

Eventually a flooded market of d20 systems will become useless, how far can such a diluted system really be diluted even further?
Who will be willing to pay $20 to $40 a book for the same system redone?

Ill give you it has threatened other systems in the short run, however in the long run wizards of the coast will be lucky to be in buisiness in 5 years.

[TheGame]

People are not buying d20 products for the system anymore. They are buying it for the flavor.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Originally posted by Lacertys
however in the long run wizards of the coast will be lucky to be in buisiness in 5 years.
Don't people say this every year, though? You're talking about a company that, should it see the need, has the funding (if Hasbro pull's its head out of its collective corporate ass) to totally switch the direction of their product lines, should the need arise.

[Seanchai]

Originally posted by Steve Conan Trustrum

Don't people say this every year, though? You're talking about a company that, should it see the need, has the funding (if Hasbro pull's its head out of its collective corporate ass) to totally switch the direction of their product lines, should the need arise.

They've been saying at least since the TSR buyout...

Seanchai