Got A Peek at Gehenna...

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

And in the back, it has the first add for the new World of Darkness.

Nothing of substance, save a title: Vampire: The Requiem.

[Wizdoc]

Could mean anything, but the title leaves me with the impression that they're going for more individual angsty stuff of a Vampiric life this time, instead of group dealings (i.e. the Masquerade and the vampire politics).

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Flawless Glory of Silence
And in the back, it has the first add for the new World of Darkness.

Nothing of substance, save a title: Vampire: The Requiem.

What, so they're all dead?

[coatdance]

Originally posted by Flawless Glory of Silence
And in the back, it has the first add for the new World of Darkness.

Nothing of substance, save a title: Vampire: The Requiem.

How about just Vempire? How about dropping this colon crap and stop pretending that people who play this game (which i have long liked) actually do use it as an exercise in psychotherapy.

Maybe this way we can get some of the WW morons from the hobby; the kind that wear long dark leather trenchcoats in midsummer and talk to themselves in rpg shops.

No wait, that last is just me.

[Amado G]

Originally posted by coatdance
How about just Vempire? How about dropping this colon crap and stop pretending that people who play this game (which i have long liked) actually do use it as an exercise in psychotherapy.

Maybe this way we can get some of the WW morons from the hobby; the kind that wear long dark leather trenchcoats in midsummer and talk to themselves in rpg shops.

No wait, that last is just me.

We'll get rid of them as soon as we get rid of those DnD cats with too-thick glasses who mutter around to themselves in FLGS the world over. Which means we'll get rid of them when our hobby isn't something that involves imagination and there aren't people who want to use their imaginations to get away from bad day-to-day life.

Snobbery among geeks is gross. Don't be one to participate.

Vampire: The Requiem, huh...I'm interested.

[Stephenls]

Huh.

"Vampire: The Requiem" suggests to me that they're not going with "human corebook + supernatural fatsplats," then. Drat.

[Christian A]

Well, you can't have everything.

[Amado G]

Originally posted by Stephenls
Huh.

"Vampire: The Requiem" suggests to me that they're not going with "human corebook + supernatural fatsplats," then. Drat.

Yeah.

That made me happy. I'm glad WW doesn't need to go the Wizards route in order to make money, and that I can have everything I need in one book.

[Jim DelRosso]

They might be going with the Exalted/DA model, tho.

[Amado G]

Originally posted by Jim DelRosso
They might be going with the Exalted/DA model, tho.

Well, that's more what I meant. I basically was saying that I'd be dissapointed with the "Rules in a game that I don't play's core for ease of crossover which I'm not particularly interested in" model.

But, call me crazy.

[RobotHead]

Originally posted by Amado G
Well, that's more what I meant. I basically was saying that I'd be dissapointed with the "Rules in a game that I don't play's core for ease of crossover which I'm not particularly interested in" model.

But, call me crazy.

You're crazy! :D

How many times do I have the ST character creation rules? Well I own V:tM, W:tA, M:tA, W:tGW, and W:tO so that makes it five times. I'd rather have it in once.

[Amado G]

Originally posted by RobotHead
You're crazy! :D

How many times do I have the ST character creation rules? Well I own V:tM, W:tA, M:tA, W:tGW, and W:tO so that makes it five times. I'd rather have it in once.

Why? I don't see that they're hurting anyone, and it's always nice to have the handy reference in one place. Don't get me wrong, I like the way Exalted is handled, but the One Core system really only when you assume a single basis for various fatsplats.

[2trick]

Maybe there WILL be some kind of human corebook, but "Vampire: the Requiem" is just the name for the fatsplat, with one of those annoying colon things in there for good measure.

But all things considered, I think the DA model is most likely. Vampire sells like hotcakes.

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

Indeed, I'd anticipate V:tR to be a standalone book. Perhaps the core of a line modeled after DA/Exalted...but even then, that's kind of questionable. I suppose it depends on how tightly integrated the new WoD is gonna be.

[DSPaul]

I think the new versions of Mage and Werewolf will probably be stand-alone books as well. Any other supernatural types will almost certainly go the fatsplat route, though.

[Amado G]

Originally posted by DSPaul
I think the new versions of Mage and Werewolf will probably be stand-alone books as well. Any other supernatural types will almost certainly go the fatsplat route, though.

I'd be down for that.

I'd REALLY like to see the new Changeling done Orpheus style with the movie model and a limited series run. That would be tight.

[Prophetsteve]

But all things considered, I think the DA model is most likely. Vampire sells like hotcakes.

Yeah - It probably stands to reason that Vampire: The Requiem will be the corebooks, with the rest of the denziens being fatsplats like Exalted and Dark Ages. Its seems to be their publishing M.O. of late and it seems to be working for them.

I am all for this model, myself - I am no fan of Vampires at all (Mage and Mortals are more my thing) but I was really pleased by the Dark Ages corebook and fatsplats.

Sometime ago I came to grips with the fact that ultimately the hobby is a business and a business has to go with its strengths. Vampire is top dog at the Wolf, so even if I am not a Vampire fan, I concede that Vampire will always get the better release rates and preferential treatment.

If I can make a prediction, I have a feeling that "The Requiem" is not a Vampire-specific moniker and we'll see Mage: The Requiem, and Werewolf: the Requiem... hmm maybe this is about Humans striking back at the supernaturals right from the start... Year of the Hunter right from the start?

[Funksaw]

Main Entry: re·qui·em
Pronunciation: 're-kwE-&m also 'rA- or 'rE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin (first word of the introit of the requiem mass), accusative of requies rest, from re- + quies quiet, rest -- more at WHILE
Date: 14th century
1 : a mass for the dead
2 a : a solemn chant (as a dirge) for the repose of the dead b : something that resembles such a solemn chant
3 a : a musical setting of the mass for the dead b : a musical composition in honor of the dead

[Amado G]

Originally posted by Prophetsteve
Yeah - It probably stands to reason that Vampire: The Requiem will be the corebooks, with the rest of the denziens being fatsplats like Exalted and Dark Ages. Its seems to be their publishing M.O. of late and it seems to be working for them.


Orpheus. Demon.

I disagree. I do agree on the hobby being a business, they seem to've done well enough with the cores in the WoD, and I'm not necessarily seeing why that should change.

[Bards R Us]

Originally posted by DSPaul
I think the new versions of Mage and Werewolf will probably be stand-alone books as well. Any other supernatural types will almost certainly go the fatsplat route, though.

Perhaps Demon will be as well, but I certainly hope that Werewolf and Mage are..

[Prophetsteve]

Orpheus. Demon.

Yes, but Demon is clearly in the modern-day WoD setting (that is, the separate game-line format), as is Orpheus nominally.

The last two settings - Dark Ages and Age of Sorrows has been using the fatsplat route.

With the modern games they have been consistant with the multiple-lines theme, but since the new WoD will be a brand new start, its possible that they will change the format.

[A.B.W]

I'm just curious why anyone who doesn't work at White Wolf thinks there's reason to think anything about the new organization. The folks in Atlanta and all the freelancing ships at sea have done such a good job maintaining confidentiality on this one. It seems kind of strange to me to put any hope or fear at all into guesswork at this point. It's cool to think what I might like, but mostly I figure I should wait to find out what's coming up and then have a reaction.

[Stephenls]

I'd much prefer the corebook + fatsplat model. Here's why.

You know the middle of Mage? All the space that's filled up with the basics of character creation and die mechanics and ability / background descriptions and things? That could be filled with Mage-specific info.

As long as White Wolf bugets for a 288 or 310 page corebook anyway, mind -- 212 or 220 page fatsplats aren't cool.

But I don't want to have Vampire as the corebook. Because then Vampire would be the one with generic info stuck into the middle of the book, while all the other lines benefited from 60 or so extra game-specific pages. Vampire'd end up an inferior product.

That's why I want a corebook dedicated to mortals and a bunch of supernatural core sourcebooks.

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

Originally posted by A.B.W
I'm just curious why anyone who doesn't work at White Wolf thinks there's reason to think anything about the new organization. The folks in Atlanta and all the freelancing ships at sea have done such a good job maintaining confidentiality on this one. It seems kind of strange to me to put any hope or fear at all into guesswork at this point. It's cool to think what I might like, but mostly I figure I should wait to find out what's coming up and then have a reaction.

Heaven forfend a bunch of geeks sit around and enjoy speculating and bullshitting!

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

Originally posted by Stephenls
That's why I want a corebook dedicated to mortals and a bunch of supernatural core sourcebooks.

I doubt you'd ever see that. Because, if you wanted to do a one book game, you'd have...mortals. Yay.

Vampire is their bread and butter, so it makes since to make that, at least, standalone. The other supernats I'm not sure about, I could see them go either way (or possibily both).

[Prophetsteve]

But I don't want to have Vampire as the corebook. Because then Vampire would be the one with generic info stuck into the middle of the book, while all the other lines benefited from 60 or so extra game-specific pages. Vampire'd end up an inferior product.

True. Though, the folks at WW may reason that since Vamprie would be the core line - that is, the one with the most focused sourcebooks, they could afford to be lighter with the info than the fatsplats which may, depending on their popularity, have a less aggressive schedule.

[happyelf]

They really need to unify and tidy up their mechanics, and do the same to continuity(or alternatly, make it more option-based as a rule). Beyond that, the exact format isn't that important.

I think vamps would probably be as good a place as any to do out the basic rules, but even if they put rules in all books, the important thing is that they set up a tidy, unified, and non-archaic system to base them on.

[Chade]

I hope every game has the rules in its corebook. I don't like Vampire, and don't want to be forced to buy it for the new rules. I would much rather buy the rules twice in Werewolf and Mage than once in Vampire.

[Funksaw]

Well, someone could commit massive copyright infringement and put together a "Storyteller Lite" version themselves.

Hey. That's kinda cool.

-- Funksaw

[Peter LaCara]

Originally posted by Stephenls
I'd much prefer the corebook + fatsplat model. Here's why.

You know the middle of Mage? All the space that's filled up with the basics of character creation and die mechanics and ability / background descriptions and things? That could be filled with Mage-specific info.

As long as White Wolf bugets for a 288 or 310 page corebook anyway, mind -- 212 or 220 page fatsplats aren't cool.

But I don't want to have Vampire as the corebook. Because then Vampire would be the one with generic info stuck into the middle of the book, while all the other lines benefited from 60 or so extra game-specific pages. Vampire'd end up an inferior product.

That's why I want a corebook dedicated to mortals and a bunch of supernatural core sourcebooks. On the other hand, do you remember how huge the Exalted corebook was? It broke 400 pages. That book was fucking HUGE.

If they follow the same model, and since Vampire is pretty much WW's flagship game, it might stand to reason that Vampire could end up pretty fucking huge as well.

I'd like that.

[Prophetsteve]

I hope every game has the rules in its corebook. I don't like Vampire, and don't want to be forced to buy it for the new rules. I would much rather buy the rules twice in Werewolf and Mage than once in Vampire.


I hope it goes the Dark Ages core/fatsplat route myself. I hate buying multiple copies of the ruleset - and like I said, I have no particular love of Vampire myself (though I have no rampant dislike for it either). Personal preference, though I would be intetested in hearing the Vampire-players POV, concidering they form the bulk of the WoD fandom.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[Armmeggedon]

I'd like to see a "Storyteller System" book, then books to cover the various critters, with only the rules and other bits needed for each specific "race:. So, the main book, just rules no setting, and setting books for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage (and dare I hope, Changeling).

Plus, I'd like a pony.

[ross_winn]

Originally posted by Wizdoc
Could mean anything, but the title leaves me with the impression that they're going for more individual angsty stuff of a Vampiric life this time, instead of group dealings (i.e. the Masquerade and the vampire politics).

Kiss of Death #1 Abandon Core Audience

Vampire is defined by troupe play. Moving away from that is moving away from any players they may still have after the reset.

[Stephenls]

Originally posted by Peter LaCara
On the other hand, do you remember how huge the Exalted corebook was? It broke 400 pages. That book was fucking HUGE.

Actually, the Exalted corebook is 352 pages long.

But you have a point. If Vampire: The Requiem is 352 pages long, then yeah, it'd make sense to make it the corebook with the other lines as fatsplats.

[QUOTE]If they follow the same model, and since Vampire is pretty much WW's flagship game, it might stand to reason that Vampire could end up pretty fucking huge as well.

I'd like that.

True.

I hope the other game lines keep getting the standard 8 supplements per year, though. I'd hate to see Mage sink down to one or two specialized supplements per year just because you need the Vampire corebook to run it.

[Traumritter]

I'd like to see the core rules + fatsplats route taken. I absolutely love what DP 9 has done with their SilCORE rules; there's no way the new Jovian Chronicles and Heavy Gear books could have as much setting information as they do, while still maintaining the snazzy layouts, as they would if they had to supply basic rules in each book.

I would like to see at least basic setting info, at least from the mortal perspective, in the book. This would work because, unlike with the SilCORE games, the new WoD games are at least going to be in the same setting. And I do agree that the Exalted method would result in a sub-optimal product for that particular splat, although it seemed to be handled well with Exalted, so...

[Kakita Kojiro]

Originally posted by ross_winn
Vampire is defined by troupe play.
Did you perhaps mean something else here?

Troupe play = style popularized in Ars Magica where each player controls more than one character, often of differing power levels.

Although Mark Rein*Hagen was involved in both Ars and Vampire, I don't recall troupe-style coming up in Vampire.

But if you meant this as "political-style play", carry on.

[The Eye]

Originally posted by ross_winn
Kiss of Death #1 Abandon Core Audience

Vampire is defined by troupe play. Moving away from that is moving away from any players they may still have after the reset.



i don't think their moving away from troupe play.

having lots of people play together isn't dependent upon having a massive conspiracy and secret supernatural war.

[Kurotowa]

I really like the corebook/fatsplat model for Exalted. But it only works so well with Exalted because all the character types are, well, Exalted. They all have essence motes and virtues and charms and the same abilities. You only need a few minor rules changes, the new backgrounds, and their charms section. It works so well, I'm a little worried about the Fair Folk book, but that's a side point. My main point is that I think the natures of the main groups are so disimilar that they won't fit into the core/fat model as well. From my (admittedly brief) readthrough of DA:WW, it didn't look nearly as elegant as the Exalted fatsplats. Also, there is the trouble of a more splintered fanbase than Exalted.

What I would look forward to, and what the ToJ setup makes me expect, is where the three big titles are all corebooks. Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage each as their own central nexus, and a set of fatsplats around each of them. You'd have Wraith and Mummy and other undead types working off of Vampire, and the creature of myth like Changeling clustered around Werewolf, and the occult doings and strange metaphysics like Demon spun off Mage. It would exploit the fatsplat system without making all the gamelines dependant on one book.

[ADamiani]

Originally posted by dyjoots
i don't think their moving away from troupe play.

having lots of people play together isn't dependent upon having a massive conspiracy and secret supernatural war.

Yeah, but they're running some risks however they mess with the formula, y'know?

In the genre, you almost have to have (The group the PCs are in) in a Secret Supernatural War with (the Main Enemy Group) to be able to run it dumb. Not that that's the best way to run, but if I have to GM and I have 15 minutes notice and no great inspiration, I can always have the PCs tear up the local Sabbat packs, Wyrm goons, Technocracy base, or local Vampires (for Mummy, Hunter). Changeling and Wraith-- which I really loved-- didn't quite have this (neither, for that matter, did Aberrant or Adventure!), and I think it was at least a contributing factor to their. It's the analogue to the DnD Dungeon Crawl.

[Someone]

I think the actuality is that White Wolf still sees Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage as distinct gamelines - albeit related ones.

I remember I read somewhere that they could only support a finite number of lines - something like seven - and that they would only choose the most profitable ones to fit these slots.

I think the fact is that, unlike Dark Ages which can only support a a single inclusive line, there is enough of a fanbase to allow for three separate core-lines in the WoD setting. Those fans that only wish to play with just Vampires, Mages or Werewolves will still be able to do so, without having to buy another book for core-rules. And frankly, the Storyteller system isn't strong enough or popular enough to warrant a seperate book by itself.

The only other thing that can be gleaned from the title "Vampire: the Requiem" is that we are basically likely to simply see new editions, with changes made to ongoing issues identified by fans, and spinning a slightly less pessimistic tone to suit the tastes of the modern market. They will, I bet, still be essentially the same games though.

What's next, I wonder.....Werewolf: the Raging or Mage:....er...the Matrix....

[hackmastergeneral]

Originally posted by ADamiani
In the genre, you almost have to have (The group the PCs are in) in a Secret Supernatural War with (the Main Enemy Group) to be able to run it dumb. Not that that's the best way to run, but if I have to GM and I have 15 minutes notice and no great inspiration, I can always have the PCs tear up the local Sabbat packs, Wyrm goons, Technocracy base, or local Vampires (for Mummy, Hunter). Changeling and Wraith-- which I really loved-- didn't quite have this (neither, for that matter, did Aberrant or Adventure!), and I think it was at least a contributing factor to their. It's the analogue to the DnD Dungeon Crawl.

Ummm...ya know, in Wraith, you can just toss the characters up against some rampaging Spectres. Its real easy to do. Or have them run across some nasty Guild members, if you are focusing on Heirarchy stuff.

Aberrant, like most other super hero games, without reams of published pre-established characters (Marvel, DC Heroes), its a little harder. Most of the published stats for Ab guys are fairly major heavyhitters better suited to big story arcs. Saying, "You are on a patrol and see Divis Mal steal an old ladies purse...what do you do?" besides frightening the crap out of your heroes, will just seem dumb... :-)

[Noone]

I'm just glad the new game will have a slightly different name, so it's easly to distinuish from old-school Masquerade if that's what you want to play.

[Lxndr]

Originally posted by coatdance
How about just Vempire? How about dropping this colon crap and stop pretending that people who play this game (which i have long liked) actually do use it as an exercise in psychotherapy.

Because the word "Vampire" by itself isn't enough to get trademarked. Adding a subtitle makes it trademarkable. Or such is my understanding, anyway.

[James K.]

Originally posted by Amado G
Snobbery among geeks is gross. Don't be one to participate.
Take your own advice. And read a post thoroughly before dishing its author; his comment was meant to be self-deprecating.

[James K.]

Originally posted by Lxndr
Because the word "Vampire" by itself isn't enough to get trademarked. Adding a subtitle makes it trademarkable. Or such is my understanding, anyway.
That makes perfect sense. I can't believe I never considered that.

[Shining Dragon]

Originally posted by Someone
What's next, I wonder.....Werewolf: the Raging or Mage:....er...the Matrix....


Mage: The Fireballing

[JohnConstantine]

Why can't we all just agree that whatever it is, we will put our faith into White Wolf that it will be good?

[Bouy]

Originally posted by JohnConstantine
Why can't we all just agree that whatever it is, we will put our faith into White Wolf that it will be good?

Never!

[JakeMorley]

Originally posted by hackmastergeneral
Saying, "You are on a patrol and see Divis Mal steal an old ladies purse...what do you do?" besides frightening the crap out of your heroes, will just seem dumb... :-)

Have you been looking at my notes?

'Cuz seriously, the next Sabbat game was going to be: "You're on patrol (in Mississauga, Ontario), and see an Antediluvian steal an old lady's purse...what do you do?"

[Prophetsteve]

'Cuz seriously, the next Sabbat game was going to be: "You're on patrol (in Mississauga, Ontario), and see an Antediluvian steal an old lady's purse...what do you do?"

Wasn't that the entire metaplot-line for Hunter: the Reckoning in a nutshell?

[SJE]

Originally posted by JohnConstantine
Why can't we all just agree that whatever it is, we will put our faith into White Wolf that it will be good?

What, like Changeling, Streetfighter, Hunter or (Gawds forgive me for mentioning it).......... Mage Revised!

I lost that old time faith there and then.

Still, when WW produce a good game, then its usually pretty innovative and groundbreaking- Ars Magica, Vampire, Mage, Aberrant and Adventure to name but a few.

My one worry is that they really seem to have given up on radical innovation- Ars and Vampire for example really were totally different from the RPG's of their day. Subsequent games have just been built around the same Splat and Teenage Angst template.

While Vamp: tR will be a retread of what sold well before, I hope that some of the other games break out a bit. How about a rule-less RPG? Or a game of self-empowering altruisim? Or deriving all skills from personality traits?

SJE

[Darrin Kelley]

Originally posted by JohnConstantine
Why can't we all just agree that whatever it is, we will put our faith into White Wolf that it will be good?

Looking at their history, can you really say that White Wolf has done anything really good?

Their D20 line is mediocre at best. Except for the stuff they publish for Monte Cook.

Their Storyteller games have been inconsistant and not well thought out from the outset. Full of hack-knee'd game fiction and little substance.

Trust in White Wolf? No. I have more faith in other game companies. Pretty much any other game company. Because White Wolf's track record speaks for itself.

[Phantom Stranger]

Originally posted by Darrin Kelley
Looking at their history, can you really say that White Wolf has done anything really good?


Yes.

Of course, that's a subjective opinion. But hey. We're subjective creatures.

But I REALLY enjoy Adventure!

I'm also a fan of the Dark Ages line.

But, hey, that's me.

[Grimn]

Nope. They've done nothing well. At all.

Not Exalted. Not Trinity or Adventure! Not Wraith or Vampire Revised. Ravenloft is crap. As is everything White Wolf has ever done. It has to be. All that teenage angst right?

They all suck. Too many angst ridden demigods. Too many brooding two fisted heroes.

So obviously the next two or three games are going to be crap. It's inevitable. Actually reading the books when they are released to find out wouldn't be worth the effort as everyone already knows it's going to suck. So what's the point?

After all we'll always have Rifts to fill us with fuzzy feelings and joy.

-Nathan
Read the subtext.

[happyelf]

Um, WW didn't invent ravenloft.Originally posted by Kurotowa
I really like the corebook/fatsplat model for Exalted. But it only works so well with Exalted because all the character types are, well, Exalted. They all have essence motes and virtues and charms and the same abilities. You only need a few minor rules changes, the new backgrounds, and their charms section.The point i'd make here is that WW would do well to unify the mchanics based around thieir beasties. Maybe character creation would be different, and one would have 'blood' while the othe would have 'rage', but clearing up all the unesesecary differences and discrepancies would be a good step for them. Really, the system is a mess, codifying and streamlining it a bit won't damage it's appeal.Originally posted by Kakita Kojiro
Did you perhaps mean something else here?
Troupe play = style popularized in Ars Magica where each player controls more than one character, often of differing power levels. Although Mark Rein*Hagen was involved in both Ars and Vampire, I don't recall troupe-style coming up in Vampire. But if you meant this as "political-style play", carry on. I assume they mean party-based or party-intensive play, however i hae read about some Vamp campaigns that have different 'generations' of vamps (childer) as part of a long-term, machiavelian plotline.

I do however think that 'troupe style play' is a divergent and interesting enough option that it doens't deserve to have it's name stolen, and that when a lot of players say 'troupe', they really just mean 'party'. It's ok to have your own terminology, but it's not ok if a term is already in use in a quite diffrent way.

[Shining Dragon]

Originally posted by Darrin Kelley
Looking at their history, can you really say that White Wolf has done anything really good?


Since White Wolf has gathered a decent following for their games, I'm guessing that they have.

[Prophetsteve]

Looking at their history, can you really say that White Wolf has done anything really good?

Hmmm, yes. Exalted. Trinity. Orpheus. Adventure! Wraith. Mummy; to name some. The Aeon Continuum games in particular have always been a big favorite of mine.

Sure there have been some games that have been lackluster in my view but honestly I give White Wolf at least a bit of credit; I'll at least give the book a good look and fair evaluation before buying.

Their Storyteller games have been inconsistant and not well thought out from the outset. Full of hack-knee'd game fiction and little substance.

Well, I have no idea what your concept of "little substance" is. Frankly I have found Exalted and the other games listed above to be full of substance - but then again I like a balance in my books between so-called fluff and crunch.

Trust in White Wolf? No. I have more faith in other game companies. Pretty much any other game company. Because White Wolf's track record speaks for itself.

I'd like to see which companies you have "more faith in". As far as White Wolf's track record... it does speak for itself. That is why I am going to give them a chance. Nuff said.

[Prophetsteve]

After all we'll always have Rifts to fill us with fuzzy feelings and joy.

Best. Line. Evar. :D

[Hudson]

I'm looking forward to seeing how V:tR stacks up to V:tM. I'm more than willing to give it a chance, but honestly it will have to be better than V:tM to motivate me into buying it. I don't doubt that it will be good, but it'll have to be that much better to get me to buy New Vampire as opposed to sticking with Vampire Classic.

On a vaguely related note: Are all the line developers for the old WoD lines going to be the same ones for their respective reincarnations? (This only applies to the lines that are being reincarnated, of course)

[NPCw3412]

Originally posted by JakeMorley
Have you been looking at my notes?

'Cuz seriously, the next Sabbat game was going to be: "You're on patrol (in Mississauga, Ontario), and see an Antediluvian steal an old lady's purse...what do you do?"

Nah, It would be better this way:
"You`re ( from the clan Lasombra) on a patrol, and see the shadows of the alley arrest an old lady`s purse. The old lady shouts for help are aloud, but nobody else is willing to leave their comfort to risk death in the dangerous streets of Mississauga, since everyone knows that Ontario is overrun with thirsty maddened vampires. The night belongs to you, child of the night, or so you thought before facing these misterious shadows. The shadows attract you, and before you perceived you were almost in the shadows reach. You jump almost too late to escape their embrace, and listen an almost inaudible whisper: 'Soon, child, you will join me in the shadows.' You run to alert the rest of your pack, keeping always in the path of the lamps, while a single thought run in your mind: He is here! He is here! Caine help us all, Lasombra is HERE!"

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

Last I had heard, the only devleoper confirmed as part of the WoD 2.0 was Ethan Skemp (but no word on what part).

I'm looking forward to the new setting and games, as this is WW's chance to take what they've elarned over the past thirteen years of WoD products, and bundle that into a single whole.

[aragorn]

Originally posted by happyelf
The point i'd make here is that WW would do well to unify the mchanics based around thieir beasties. Maybe character creation would be different, and one would have 'blood' while the othe would have 'rage', but clearing up all the unesesecary differences and discrepancies would be a good step for them. Really, the system is a mess, codifying and streamlining it a bit won't damage it's appeal.

I feel quite comfortable in saying this. "What, so I can play vampires, except that they have fangs and fur?" Dude, those differences is what makes the games interesting in the first place.

In fact, in Exalted's case the rules and mechanics are largely the same already. It's the fact that they _did_ differentiate the mechanics and some of the internals of each of the "splats" that made them at all interesting. Well, that and the story but that's another ball of wax entirely.

[aragorn]

Originally posted by Prophetsteve
Best. Line. Evar. :D

"I do not think that word means what you think it means." :)

Sorry, I've seen one too many of that spelling of "ever" today.

[Stephenls]

I'm fairly sure that Vampire will still be developed by Justin Achilli. He mentioned feeling finished, and how before the ToJ came up he was considering leaving Vampire, and how now he feels all excited again. So that's something -- a Vampire developed from the start by the most competent of all Vampire developers, with no unwanted baggage.

It's good to hear that Ethan will still be developing Werewolf. Ethan is like an anchor.

I'll be curious to see what's done with Mage.

[Christian A]

Originally posted by Stephenls
I'll be curious to see what's done with Mage.

Some time ago, Justin said that there's a possibility that he's doing a new version of Changeling.

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

Originally posted by Stephenls
I'm fairly sure that Vampire will still be developed by Justin Achilli. He mentioned feeling finished, and how before the ToJ came up he was considering leaving Vampire, and how now he feels all excited again. So that's something -- a Vampire developed from the start by the most competent of all Vampire developers, with no unwanted baggage.

It's good to hear that Ethan will still be developing Werewolf. Ethan is like an anchor.

I'll be curious to see what's done with Mage.

Eh, I think Rob Hatch was the best Vampire developer, he laid the solid foundation that Justin Achilli was able to run with.

And they haven't said what Ethan is working on, just that he is a devleoper for soemthing.q

[cappadocius]

Originally posted by SJE
How about a rule-less RPG?

Version 1:

Player 1: "I shot you!"
Player 2: "No you didn't!"
Player 1: "Yes, I did!"
Player 2: "Didn't!"
Player 1: "Mooooooooooom!!!"

Version 2:

Player 1: "I shot you."
Player 2: "No you didn't!"
GM: "Actually, Player 2. You slept with my girlfriend, so yes, he did shoot you."
Player 1: "Ha ha!"
GM: "And Player 1, you smell like cat pee. You shoot him, and then your head explodes. You die."

I think I'll pass on rules-less games.

[Amado G]

Originally posted by Stephenls

I'll be curious to see what's done with Mage.

In my happy, fun little dreamworld, Malcolm's the Mage developer.

Seriously, though, I haven't really been a major fan of what Bridges has developed, so if there IS a new developer, I'm VERY curious to see what's up with Mage: The Whatever.

[DSPaul]

Originally posted by SJE
What, like Changeling, Streetfighter, Hunter or (Gawds forgive me for mentioning it).......... Mage Revised!
Yes. Those are all good games.

Okay, I'm willing to admit that Streetfighter isn't everybody's bag, but it's very good at capturing the feel of the source material, bizzare and goofy as it is.

[Stephenls]

Originally posted by Amado G
In my happy, fun little dreamworld, Malcolm's the Mage developer.

Oh, mine as well. I'd pay a truly exorbitant amount of money to buy a copy of a brand new no-baggage edition of Mage: The Something, developed by Malcolm Sheppard, That Guy Who Knows His Mage. Like, what I paid for Nobilis, maybe. Or more, even.

Curse you for even mentioning it, though, because I doubt it'll happen.

Seriously, though, I haven't really been a major fan of what Bridges has developed, so if there IS a new developer, I'm VERY curious to see what's up with Mage: The Whatever.

Bridges in his first bit of Mage development hasn't been quite as bad as Jess was in Jess's first bit of Mage development (before he went all kickass competent and then quit/was fired/was killed and replaced with a clone who then quit/whatever), but he has produced some seriously flawed material. Of course, the Tradition books suffered most from, er, Malcolm not having enough time to write all of them (save Dreamspeakers, which Bruce Baugh did a great job on).

I think a Mage developed by Bridges from the ground up might be cool, though.

As I said, I'm interested in what they're doing with Mage.

[SirFozzie]

Originally posted by SJE
What, like Changeling, Streetfighter, Hunter or (Gawds forgive me for mentioning it).......... Mage Revised!

I lost that old time faith there and then.


Hey.. you can go after Changeling, Hunter or Mage Revised, but don't you be dissing my Street Fighter....

[Christian A]

Actually, no. You can't go against Hunter or Changeling, because these games are my favourite.

[SJE]

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Hey.. you can go after Changeling, Hunter or Mage Revised, but don't you be dissing my Street Fighter....

Apologies for that. On reflection I've decided that you are right- Streetfighter does no deserve to be labelled with such games as Hunter or M:R- it had too much integrity for that.

SJE

[Christian A]

Originally posted by SJE
Apologies for that. On reflection I've decided that you are right- Streetfighter does no deserve to be labelled with such games as Hunter or M:R- it had too much integrity for that.

SJE

grrr

[GhostDog]

<lots of people wanting the new WW line to follow Exalted's lead>

I hope WW decides not to do this. For one, I wasn't a huge vampire fan to begin with and I don't want to be force fed a $35 book just so I can get 30 pages or so of rules. And who says doing that would result in more information for the splats to follow anyway? The end result just might be less pages for the other critters.

[Sammael99]

I haven't read the whole thread here (waaaaaaaay too much speculation for my widdle brain ;)) but there's one thing I just don't understand about this whole WoD 2.0 (if that's what we call it...)

And the thing I don't understand is : what's the point ?

Say I like Mage. I do. Check my sig if you don't believe me. So they're ending it. I think that's cool actually. The apocalyptic thing is way too rare in RPGs, and WW has woven into its threads for years now. So, yeah, way to go WW !

And then, after they're ending it... They're doing a new one ? Ey ?

I mean, what's the point of ending it if you're gonna do it over again ?

So I am to believe that we will have another modern game about vampires, another modern game about werewolves, another modern game about Mage, etc. ?

What's the frigging point ? There's already one of each of these out there, I happen to think they're neat, and if I don't want to apocalyptize it, I just don't. But the whole reboot thing strikes me as pointless...

Are you guys telling me you intend to buy and possibly run the whole End of Times thing and THEN buy new games to run roughly the same thing only with a slightly tweaked system and slightly different premises ?

I don't get it... I mean I get it from WW's point of view. You've gotta make a living, and killing your most profitable franchise for 'artistic' reasons isn't exactly a clever business move.

So, guys, please tell me WHY you're impatient about the WoD 2.0 and why you're gonna get it ? Coz' I don't. Get it, that is...

[Christian A]

The point is that the new games are going to be very different from the old ones: new themes and settings. The only similarity between Vampire: the Masquerade and Requiem will be that it's about Vampires, for instance.

[Sammael99]

Originally posted by wyrm
The point is that the new games are going to be very different from the old ones: new themes and settings. The only similarity between Vampire: the Masquerade and Requiem will be that it's about Vampires, for instance.

I understand that. I just can't imagine wanting to participate in a different game where you play a Vampire, especially if you liked the original Vampire...

Unless they did a post-apocalyptic continuity... This I could understand. But apparently they're not...

So...

[Christian A]

Originally posted by Sammael99
I understand that. I just can't imagine wanting to participate in a different game where you play a Vampire, especially if you liked the original Vampire...

Unless they did a post-apocalyptic continuity... This I could understand. But apparently they're not...

So...

Let's wait until the books are out. I won't judge or comment until I've seen the new game.

[Mant]

Originally posted by Sammael99
I understand that. I just can't imagine wanting to participate in a different game where you play a Vampire, especially if you liked the original Vampire...

I dunno. If I pick up a novel about Vampires, I expect a different take on vampires (unless it's part of a series).

If I pick up a different RPG where you play a vampire, I expect that to be different. I wouldn't expect a Witchraft game where the PCs were vampire to play much like V:tM.

While I liked most of WW's take on vampires in V:tM, I could see myself liking V:tR as much, or more.

If I don't, I still have the old one. Different flavours and more choice seems only a plus to me.

I reckon the biggest deal will be how much resitence/inertia there is in the fanbase to moving. People with current or planned V:tM games are unlikely to shift, and some people will probably stick to V:tM. So how many people pick up the new game, and over what time, remains to be seen.

Mant

[Michael Dracon]

From the last page of the Gehenna Novel:


The world you knew is gone.
But the darkness remains.

New Setting. New System.
New World of Darkness.

August 2004
World of Darkness Rulebook
Vampire: The Requiem

[Michael Dracon]

BTW: I copy/pasted that. I have no idea what the formatting is like, but this looks like the World of Darkness Rulebook is actually a seperate book :eek:

[Phantom Stranger]

Originally posted by Sammael99
I understand that. I just can't imagine wanting to participate in a different game where you play a Vampire, especially if you liked the original Vampire...


...


...


...


No, it's no good. I can't grok this.

Sammael: I can imagine this. For example, I can imagine taking a game with the Masquerade themes - control over the Beast, secrecy, manipulation, etc - and then playing another game with different themes - a Dracula-esque focus on breaking the kine to your will, for example, horror where you are the horror, a different, darker kind of superhumanity.

Now, granted, you can do both with Masquerade, but its focused on the first set. The setting and so forth need reconceiving for each twist, or they sit oddly.

And I'm always interested in new variations on mechanics. I'll look forward to seeing how they take the Storyteller system on from Exalted.

Because it's been out long enough that they should have learned something from it.

[Michael Dracon]

I've got a feeling that this all will go exactly the same as with D&D coming with another new rules version (and I'm talking about D&D to AD&D and AD&D back to D&D D20 here).

When you look at it, it's a lot like that. WoD2.0 is going to get a variant Storyteller system. Not fully the same but not much difference as well.

[Phantom Stranger]

Originally posted by Michael Dracon
When you look at it, it's a lot like that. WoD2.0 is going to get a variant Storyteller system. Not fully the same but not much difference as well.

A certain degree of difference.

There's a major shift between WoD and Adventure! Another one between Adventure! and the Exalted line. Which is the current iteration.

Hybridity can be good.

[Christian A]

Originally posted by Michael Dracon
From the last page of the Gehenna Novel:


The world you knew is gone.
But the darkness remains.

New Setting. New System.
New World of Darkness.

August 2004
World of Darkness Rulebook
Vampire: The Requiem

*dances with glee*

[Michael Dracon]

Indeed. Personally I'm hoping for a fixed difficulty (in Exalted called target number) of 6, and 10s count as 1 success.

[Christian A]

I don't care about the system, I'll convert to FUDGE anyway. What intrigues me is the new setting.

[Stephenls]

Originally posted by Michael Dracon
From the last page of the Gehenna Novel:


The world you knew is gone.
But the darkness remains.

New Setting. New System.
New World of Darkness.

August 2004
World of Darkness Rulebook
Vampire: The Requiem

Incidentally, this changes my theories a bit. "World of Darkness Rulebook" could be the mortal-oriented corebook, which would make "Vampire: The Requiem" a supernatural fatsplat.

[Michael Dracon]

My guess is that they're indeed going for a format with one main rulebook, and a seperate book for each setting.

Good things:
- no repetition of rules with each core book
- more space for setting material

Bad things:
- you need at least two books to begin
- costs more money


Personally, I'm hoping that they indeed do it and the main WoD book does indeed hold rules for mortals. It would be logical, as it would very likely hold all the rules for the basic abilities, with the setting books telling use how many points they get.

I also am hoping that the general book (again, if there is even such a thing) will be a small softcover book.

[CleverName]

Originally posted by Michael Dracon
My guess is that they're indeed going for a format with one main rulebook, and a seperate book for each setting.

Good things:
- no repetition of rules with each core book
- more space for setting material

Bad things:
- you need at least two books to begin
- costs more money


Well, I can count number of V:tM players (or any other WoD game) I knew which only played with the core book on exactly ZERO fingers -- in the long run I think this will be a non-issue. ;)

Now the fact that it sounds like you might have to buy two books to effectively start playing will not make some folks happy.

My guess is that the core book has just enough to make up PCs for any of the genre WoDII will cover.

If you want more detailed characters, options, more opponants, etc. then you need to buy the "genre" book. So, everyone will eventually buy one of those too.

All of that is fine with me as long as the system advances as we have seen with Trinity and Exalted.

I'm also hoping for a MUCH less intrusive metaplot - especially in MAGE. I won't hold my breath on that.

I wonder how long they are going to wait to introduce WW and Mage and whatever?

[Stephenls]

Originally posted by CleverName
I wonder how long they are going to wait to introduce WW and Mage and whatever?

I'd expect either one every six months or one every year. That's just me plucking figures from the air, though.

[ADamiani]

Originally posted by Phantom Stranger
A certain degree of difference.

There's a major shift between WoD and Adventure! Another one between Adventure! and the Exalted line. Which is the current iteration.

Really? I thought Exalted was pretty compatable with Storyteller 2.0 (er the Aeon/Aberrant/A! mechanics; I have a feeling that abbreviation may be appropriated shortly), wasn't it? Don't both use second gen mechanics for soak and multiple actions, (usually) fixed target numbers, et cetera?

[CleverName]

Originally posted by Stephenls
I'd expect either one every six months or one every year. That's just me plucking figures from the air, though.

Hmm...the longer they wait, the fewer profits there are. After all, once a line like V:tR starts, then the support (splat books, etc.) also start -- normally one a month. Splat books, etc. push more core book sales, etc.

I'm just grabbing numbers as well, but I think it will be much shorter than six months to a year. I'm guessing one a quarter or one every two months until the big three are released (Vampire, Werewolf and Mage).

Now I think they will hold off until next August for anything "new" like a revamped version of one of the less-popular titles (Hunter, Changeling or Wraith) OR something altogether new.

[Michael Dracon]

My guess is that the big three will all be coming out this year. Waiting too long would be a negative thing for them.

[Michael Dracon]

The Exalted Storyteller system is not fully the same as Aeon. But it's only a few details that are different.

[ADamiani]

Originally posted by Stephenls
I'd expect either one every six months or one every year. That's just me plucking figures from the air, though.

I'm skeptical that WW wants to take another 5 years or so before it's running on full steam again, especially with the core + fatsplat publishing model. There are some dangers in allowing the fanbase to lie fallow for that long. I'd expect them to start rolling out new corebooks, at least initially, at about the rate they've been going with Exalted-- say every four to six months for the first batch.

I'm not sure if everything will get full-line support, or if we'll see more things along the lines of Mummy or Orpheus-- that is, cores designed to work with fewer supplements, that they can expand on depending on demand. This would increase the number of seperate 'lines' they can publish, affecting the rate they roll them out at.

But, of course, your guess is ultimately as good as mine...

[happyelf]

Originally posted by aragorn
I feel quite comfortable in saying this. "What, so I can play vampires, except that they have fangs and fur?" Dude, those differences is what makes the games interesting in the first place.It's not about making two different monsters identical, it's just about talking about them in the same language. Every other RPG in historiy manages to put vastly different types of characters in the same context, WoD failed at this and the failure should be rectified. It will make the game simpler, easier to learn, and more flexible.

Sure, if Exalted has a better medium, that's great. But a bunch of different ways to do the same thing in one system isn't to anyone's benefit in a game. I'm not suggesting this is the case with anyone in particular, but WW fans sometimes seem to defend some of the game's bugs as features, and that shouldn't prevent them from clearing out a few of those bugs if they're going to do a relaunch.

So just as I believe that they should clean up their horribly sloppy continuity (even though 'the games aren't meant to crossover/contradicitons are a feature'), I feel they should tighten up their system a bit, too. Frankly I think doing so can only increase the appeal of the favorite parts of their system, such as character creation.

[Phantom Stranger]

Originally posted by CleverName
Well, I can count number of V:tM players (or any other WoD game) I knew which only played with the core book on exactly ZERO fingers -- in the long run I think this will be a non-issue. ;)


You can now happily bump that to one who provides evidence of another eighteen. But that's still a drop in the water, yes.

[CleverName]

Originally posted by Sammael99
I haven't read the whole thread here (waaaaaaaay too much speculation for my widdle brain ;)) but there's one thing I just don't understand about this whole WoD 2.0 (if that's what we call it...)

And the thing I don't understand is : what's the point ?

<SNIP>

So, guys, please tell me WHY you're impatient about the WoD 2.0 and why you're gonna get it ? Coz' I don't. Get it, that is...

I for one will not be buying it the instant it hits the shelves. I'll take a look, read what others have said and then may plunk down the $$. (I buy games all the time just to read and absorb.)

I've done some work for WW and played/run games like Mage and Hunter, so I am eager to see what they have done with the setting and rules.

At this point I'm just as interested from a business standpoint as I am as a fan.

It could be cool, it could suck. I'm intrigued and I'm a big believer in second chances in life and art...

I think the WoDcalypse was better than letting the old WoD continune into its cancerous dotage. If the designers made a big list of "things we did wrong" with the WoD and stick to it, I think it could be great.



;)

[Amado G]

Originally posted by Michael Dracon
From the last page of the Gehenna Novel:


The world you knew is gone.
But the darkness remains.

New Setting. New System.
New World of Darkness.

August 2004
World of Darkness Rulebook
Vampire: The Requiem

Fuck.

Well, it's better than having to buy Vampire when I'm not interested, still, I may just wait this out and see what the reviewers are saying before I pick it up.

[Amado G]

Originally posted by Stephenls
Oh, mine as well. I'd pay a truly exorbitant amount of money to buy a copy of a brand new no-baggage edition of Mage: The Something, developed by Malcolm Sheppard, That Guy Who Knows His Mage. Like, what I paid for Nobilis, maybe. Or more, even.

Curse you for even mentioning it, though, because I doubt it'll happen.

I think it's solely the province of dreams, unfortunatly.

Bridges in his first bit of Mage development hasn't been quite as bad as Jess was in Jess's first bit of Mage development (before he went all kickass competent and then quit/was fired/was killed and replaced with a clone who then quit/whatever), but he has produced some seriously flawed material. Of course, the Tradition books suffered most from, er, Malcolm not having enough time to write all of them (save Dreamspeakers, which Bruce Baugh did a great job on).

I think a Mage developed by Bridges from the ground up might be cool, though.

As I said, I'm interested in what they're doing with Mage.

I don't know about that. Jess, in his first few books, gave us Bitter Road (which, while not exactly a masterwork, was fairly high-quality) and Blood Treachery.

Unless you're talking Masters of the Art and Initiates of the Art and Spirit Ways. In which case, I don't think I've ever looked at either. Still, Bridges' treatment of the last few Tradbooks has left me a bit cold. I've also heard Forged of Dragon's Fire is pretty lackluster, but not read it myself, so I'm just judging from the Tradbooks.

[Funksaw]

The world you knew is gone.
But the darkness remains.

New Setting. New System.
New World of Darkness.

August 2004
World of Darkness Rulebook
Vampire: The Requiem


White Wolf has finally written something that ACTUALLY fills me with horror and dread.

-- Funksaw

[Prophetsteve]

And the thing I don't understand is : what's the point ?

Because I always have liked the WoD. Even though I am playing Unisystem now, Storyteller has been near and dear for a long time. It was the first gateway RPG that brought me out of my gunbunny gaming phase (otherwise known as the Palladium years).

Still, the old WoD is old. Practically a dinosaur in my eyes. Its a victim of 14 years of development (and sometimes overdevelopment). Too many game lines; too many supplements; too many supernaturals that really are clones of each other (Not really that much difference between Fomori, Demons, and Revised Mummies when you get passed the setting elements). Far too many bad decisions, though individually trivial, have over time created a bloated monstrosity that even the Revised books couldn't totally fix.

But I still love the WoD despite all this. Though the new WoD won't share a whole lot with the old one, I can't believe that it will not share some spirit with the original. Sure there might be no clans, no traditions, no tribes. Mages may not fight for Ascension and Vampires may not be doomed to go nuts. Gothpunk might be gone and the world may have less gargoyles and black eyeliner. Yet, I think we will all see some aspect of the WoD that is recognizable - I hope its that spirit that will draw me back.

Its still the World of Darkness. Its still White Wolf. Its the company that made me like pulp games. Its the company that changed my view about anime-themed kung-fu fantasy. Its the company that changed my view of roleplaying all those years ago. If that isn't enough to at least look at the new WoD, then I don't know what is...

[Funksaw]

Originally posted by Stephenls
Incidentally, this changes my theories a bit. "World of Darkness Rulebook" could be the mortal-oriented corebook, which would make "Vampire: The Requiem" a supernatural fatsplat.

The problem, of course, that if "World of Darkness Rulebook" contains significant changes, I'm going to end up spending twice the price to play ONE game. The only way I could perhaps see it as justifiable is if the "World of Darkness Rulebook" was either cheap, say, along the lines of Tri-Stat DX's 10 bucks, OR it was available as a PDF download of a page size that's pretty-much printable.

-- Funksaw

[Michael Dracon]

The new system will be a variant of the Storyteller system. We already got that confirmed a while ago.


Sorry for doing that in bold. I found it was needed to be seen.

[Phantom Stranger]

Originally posted by Funksaw
The problem, of course, that if "World of Darkness Rulebook" contains significant changes, I'm going to end up spending twice the price to play ONE game.

If you never plan on looking at the other stuff, yeah. Speaking for myself, I'll buy more than just Vampire and Mage in a more thoroughly integrated system/setting.

[Gentleman Highwayman]

Assuming the WWGS boys/grrls/otherz aren't snickering at us anf there is two books including a WoD Setting/Core Rulesbook ...

This means if you don't like Vampire you are no better or worse off than had the core book been Vampire. If you do like Vampire, you need a new book. (Smart WWGS, since you know Vampire is the flagship.) It also depends on the size and the cost of the Core Book. If it's a 128 page book with mood/setting and core Storyteller 2.x rules and a $15USD price tag then no big deal. If the core is 300+ pages, hardcover, full colour interior and $40USD ... ~ shivers ~

But a seperate core opens up two interesting possibilities.

1) Mortals are a core option to play in WoD.

2) WWGS could introduce a d20 style license for use with the core book, but not the fatsplats that follow.

This all assumes that WoD core rulebook and Vampire: the Requim are two book and not just a formatting trick to be one book.

Iain.

[Elemental]

Originally posted by Funksaw
White Wolf has finally written something that ACTUALLY fills me with horror and dread.

-- Funksaw

Could just mean that they're moving onto the Aeon / Exalted system.

[Emprint]

Another possibility- perhaps the World of Darkness book provides the core system and basic rules for some core supernaturals. So you'd be able to play, say, vampires, werewolves and mages out of the box, but if you want to know all of their subsplats, secrets, and superpowers, you'd need their games.

[Amado G]

Originally posted by Elemental
Could just mean that they're moving onto the Aeon / Exalted system.

It's going to be an ST-type system, but something new. Or so says a little bird I've heard twittering around.

[cappadocius]

Originally posted by CleverName

Now I think they will hold off until next August for anything "new" like a revamped version of one of the less-popular titles (Hunter, Changeling or Wraith) OR something altogether new.

According to Mr. Achilli, *if* he gets a green light on a new Changeling, it'd be released in 3rd or 4th quarter 2005. What this means in terms of releasing the Core Three, I'm not sure, but I suspect we're going to get a once a month putsch of Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, and then quarterly "small games" like Hunter and Changeling.

[Michael Dracon]

It's going to be an ST-type system, but something new. Or so says a little bird I've heard twittering around.


Justin Achilli said so a while ago on the WW forums.

[Prophetsteve]

I suspect we're going to get a once a month putsch of Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, and then quarterly "small games" like Hunter and Changeling.

If they are going to the Dark Ages and Exalted fomula, (which seems more likely than ever), I would expect that each fatsplat will also be an expansion of the setting for a particular area. So Vampire might focus on Cities, Werewolf on the wilds, Mage on the spiritual/magical world etc (depending, of course what form Werewolves, Vampires, and Mages take in WoD2).

That way you have buy-in from gamers that might not be interested in the splats themselves. I mean, you might not be interested in Wraiths as player characters but are interested in using the underworld in you games. As such you still buy the Wriath book for its info on the underworld, in which case the Wraith generation is just a bonus.

That being said, I personally don't think that fatsplats will themselves be expanding into sublines like the "big three". I expect Faeries, Ghosts, Hunters, Demons, and a whole host of supernatural criters will be released in hardcover glory, sure. But sublines? Probably not unless the books are insanely popular, much like the Dragon-blooded turned out to be in Exalted.

[Funksaw]

Originally posted by Gentleman Highwayman
Assuming the WWGS boys/grrls/otherz aren't snickering at us anf there is two books including a WoD Setting/Core Rulesbook ...

This means if you don't like Vampire you are no better or worse off than had the core book been Vampire. If you do like Vampire, you need a new book. (Smart WWGS, since you know Vampire is the flagship.) It also depends on the size and the cost of the Core Book. If it's a 128 page book with mood/setting and core Storyteller 2.x rules and a $15USD price tag then no big deal. If the core is 300+ pages, hardcover, full colour interior and $40USD ... ~ shivers ~



I'm not so optimistic. A 128 page book, even as softcover, will probably be around $22. Most of the GURPS books are 128-164 page books, and they're $22, and SJG has been known to keep things on the cheap side. I don't think WW would release a core rulebook in anything less than hardcover, and I don't see them doing that for anything less than $25.

Furthermore, the prices on the Exalted fatsplats have been $30 recently. This is the same as the price for an "old" Revised WoD rulebook. Orpheus was the only exception at $35.



But a seperate core opens up two interesting possibilities.

1) Mortals are a core option to play in WoD.



The only thing that might make a seperate core rulebook benificial is if they make the system generic - not something they're likely to do with "World of Darkness" as the title. I'm sure that the core rulebook will include Mortal rules, but quite frankly, mortals can be played in *any* system and I don't find the need to play another. It's also possible to use any of the core WOD system to play mortals even without "special" rules - just create a character without any kewl powerz.



2) WWGS could introduce a d20 style license for use with the core book, but not the fatsplats that follow.



Now, THIS, I would pay my weight in gold for. Well, maybe not my weight. Maybe Christina Flockheart's weight.



This all assumes that WoD core rulebook and Vampire: the Requim are two book and not just a formatting trick to be one book.

Iain.

-- Funksaw

[Marion Poliquin]

While I know it won't happen, I almost wish WW did switch the WOD to D20 just to see some people's reaction (self-entitlement mixed with outrage is always fun to read).

[Christian A]

Originally posted by Marion Poliquin
While I know it won't happen, I almost wish WW did switch the WOD to D20 just to see some people's reaction (self-entitlement mixed with outrage is always fun to read).

True. That would be very cool.

[CleverName]

Originally posted by Gentleman Highwayman

But a seperate core opens up two interesting possibilities.

1) Mortals are a core option to play in WoD.

2) WWGS could introduce a d20 style license for use with the core book, but not the fatsplats that follow.

This all assumes that WoD core rulebook and Vampire: the Requim are two book and not just a formatting trick to be one book.

Iain.

Both would be cool. I think an OGLed WoD system would be a great idea for WW. They are probably the only company with enough inertia to make it work for them in the long run.

But wow - can you imagine the quality of the OGL material coming out after they did?

I can imagine it would make some of the hystrionics of the Camarilla look tame as every fanboy and girl tried to out angst each other in print: "Now I can finally show that uppity Mr. "Grontar" Achilli just how cool a game about mummy abominations livin' la vida loser in South Beach would really be!"

Damn, I think I just talked myself out of it...

I'm sure some of the good companies now doing d20/OGL would throw their experienced hats into the ring, so eventually the flood of crapola whould subside and companies like Green Ronin could put out some quality stuff.


;)

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by Marion Poliquin
While I know it won't happen, I almost wish WW did switch the WOD to D20 just to see some people's reaction (self-entitlement mixed with outrage is always fun to read). I'd be pissed, and I like d20. Vampire's the #2 game out there, and no amount of fiddling will ever make it #1 given the nature of D&D's hold on the market, so what would be the point?

Of course, that's not the "self-entitlement mixed with outrage" you're looking for, more like a "WTF? filled with ennui."

--Eric

[Marion Poliquin]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan
I'd be pissed, and I like d20. Vampire's the #2 game out there, and no amount of fiddling will ever make it #1 given the nature of D&D's hold on the market, so what would be the point?

Of course, that's not the "self-entitlement mixed with outrage" you're looking for, more like a "WTF? filled with ennui."

--Eric

I'd be pissed too. But some people's (in other words, Funksaw's) reaction just might make it worthwhile.

Anyway, not gonna happen.

[Phantom Stranger]

Originally posted by Marion Poliquin
I'd be pissed too. But some people's (in other words, Funksaw's) reaction just might make it worthwhile.

Anyway, not gonna happen.

Thankfully. I can just see the multiclassed Tzimisce/Assamites now...

[Gentleman Highwayman]

Originally posted by Marion Poliquin
While I know it won't happen, I almost wish WW did switch the WOD to D20 just to see some people's reaction (self-entitlement mixed with outrage is always fun to read).

Just as some of us might find it amusing to see Washington, DC go up in nuclear fire?

Originally posted by CleverName
But wow - can you imagine the quality of the OGL material coming out after they did?

I can imagine it would make some of the hystrionics of the Camarilla look tame as every fanboy and girl tried to out angst each other in print: "Now I can finally show that uppity Mr. "Grontar" Achilli just how cool a game about mummy abominations livin' la vida loser in South Beach would really be!"

I'm quite sure that there'd be no public decency clause and some of think that some of the official stuff is craptacular as well. I'd rather have the open license and sift through stuff than be at the mercy of a handful of staffers and freelancers. That goes infinitely more if you hate the direction they go with an idea you like. WoD and D&D are opposites when you get to supplimentary material. WoD gets more detail oriented where as D&D gives more and more generic tools for your box.

Strange that in this one manner I have faith in my fellow human being. Some really neat things have come out of D20, and were worth it for me.

Iain.

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by Gentleman Highwayman
Just as some of us might find it amusing to see Washington, DC go up in nuclear fire? Once again, I'd be pissed. But only for a split second -- I live within the blast radius of any nuclear weapon that will be used on DC.

Can we please stop using examples that affect me so deeply?

;)

--Eric

[Grace Mugabe]

<i>While I know it won't happen, I almost wish WW did switch the WOD to D20 just to see some people's reaction (self-entitlement mixed with outrage is always fun to read).</i>

That would be truly incredible. It would cause a plague of forumdramas with no end. They have to do it.

[Chade]

I love the idea of a separate rulebook, especially if it starts with mortals and is OGL!!!! ;)

Then I can finally publish my version of the ultimate fantasy game :) . ( Not that I would make any money on it, but it's a dream).

[woodelf]

Originally posted by SJE
Still, when WW produce a good game, then its usually pretty innovative and groundbreaking- Ars Magica, Vampire, Mage, Aberrant and Adventure to name but a few.

Nitpick: Ars Magica predates WWGS, and i'm not sure how many of the groundbreaking elements can be attributed to WWGS.

[woodelf]

Originally posted by Prophetsteve
I'd like to see which companies you have "more faith in". As far as White Wolf's track record... it does speak for itself. That is why I am going to give them a chance. Nuff said.

Not the previous WWGS-disser--i generally like their stuff, outside of the Vampire and Hunter lines, though i don't think it's the best stuff out there, either. Anyway, to answer the question: Atlas Games. Probably the only company out there (well, maybe Adept Press, too) that i'd buy an RPG book from sight-unseen, without even knowing the writers or topic. I have that much confidence in John Nephew to only publish awesome stuff. I've fallen in love with Atlas stuff for genres (furries) or systems (D20 System) or playstyles (gamist) that i previously thought i couldn't stand.

[woodelf]

Originally posted by CleverName
Both would be cool. I think an OGLed WoD system would be a great idea for WW. They are probably the only company with enough inertia to make it work for them in the long run.

I'm sure some of the good companies now doing d20/OGL would throw their experienced hats into the ring, so eventually the flood of crapola whould subside and companies like Green Ronin could put out some quality stuff.


And, don't forget, there's no reason not to mix stuff from different systems. The very best thing that could happen to open-development RPGs is to have another system out there that is significantly different from D20 System, and roughly as popular/well-known. Action! System is great, but it just doesn't have the established recognition that D20 System (well, D&D, initially) or Storyteller do. And, in any case, more systems, with different approaches, is better. It can only hasten the development of Cool New Stuff.

[woodelf]

Originally posted by Funksaw
The problem, of course, that if "World of Darkness Rulebook" contains significant changes, I'm going to end up spending twice the price to play ONE game. The only way I could perhaps see it as justifiable is if the "World of Darkness Rulebook" was either cheap, say, along the lines of Tri-Stat DX's 10 bucks, OR it was available as a PDF download of a page size that's pretty-much printable.

-- Funksaw

Damned if you do, damned if you don't:
if each book is stand-alone, you get 50+pp of reproduced content in each book, instead of setting-/character-specific content, thus "ripping off" those who buy more than one game.
if there's a separate core rulebook, you end up "ripping off" those who only by one game.
if the core rulebook is also one of the game core books, those who want that game are happy, those who want that game and others are happy, but those who want one or more of the games, but not including that one, get "ripped off".

Personally, i think option two is the best balance of all the factors, but i'll settle for option one. I'm only gonna be ok with option 3 if the new werewolf or mummy, or maybe wraith, is the complete-rules core book ('cause those are the ones i'd buy anyway)--but even then, i wouldn't be *happy* about it.

[woodelf]

Originally posted by Mant
I dunno. If I pick up a novel about Vampires, I expect a different take on vampires (unless it's part of a series).

If I pick up a different RPG where you play a vampire, I expect that to be different. I wouldn't expect a Witchraft game where the PCs were vampire to play much like V:tM.

While I liked most of WW's take on vampires in V:tM, I could see myself liking V:tR as much, or more.

If I don't, I still have the old one. Different flavours and more choice seems only a plus to me.

I reckon the biggest deal will be how much resitence/inertia there is in the fanbase to moving. People with current or planned V:tM games are unlikely to shift, and some people will probably stick to V:tM. So how many people pick up the new game, and over what time, remains to be seen.

Mant

And, herein we run into the Catch-22 of any redesign of an RPG: if they want my dollars, they're gonna have to significantly redesign their vampires: human-ness is something that is inevitably and irretreivably lost with age, so any vampire organization run by the older vampires will be decidedly unhuman, nothing like the Camarilla; mental health for a vampire has nothing to do with being human--no more than a healthy human needs to think like a cow. In short, vampires like those in Dracula, Buffy, or, at "worst", Forever Knight --not Anne Rice.
Oh, and vampire groups that are based more on various myths from around the world, instead of all being shades of the basic Euro-mediterranean variations.

However, if those who currently play V:tM wanted that, they'd be playing Buffy, Vampire$, or some such game, and not V:tM, so they're likely to lose the existing customers if they change it enough to appease people like me.

So they're stuck with the difficult task of changing it enough to hopefully attract some new fans, without alienating the existing fans--and all while making it fresh and new, to re-invigorate the existing fans, and prevent them from feeling ripped off for having to buy the same game all over again.

Good luck!

[woodelf]

Originally posted by Amado G
Well, that's more what I meant. I basically was saying that I'd be dissapointed with the "Rules in a game that I don't play's core for ease of crossover which I'm not particularly interested in" model.

But, call me crazy.

OK, you're crazy. And so am i.

Originally posted by 2trick
But all things considered, I think the DA model is most likely. Vampire sells like hotcakes.

Sure, but how much crossover is there really between the various WoD games? On the one hand, i've known lots of gamers who play (or at least buy) several or all of the WoD games. On the other hand, i've known several who only play one, or maybe two, and can't stand the others. And then there's me: i absolutely love W:tA, M:tA, W:tO, C:tD, and Mummy, and at least like KotE and some other bits, but can't stand the WoD take on vampires--IOW, basically everything *but* V:tM, the most popular of their games. I would probably pass on the new version of Werewolf before i'd buy Vampire in order to play it.

Originally posted by DSPaul
I think the new versions of Mage and Werewolf will probably be stand-alone books as well. Any other supernatural types will almost certainly go the fatsplat route, though.

Which is fine by me. Just have them usable with *any* core WoD rulebook. I'm still pissed off about Mummy being useable with "any" WoD game--except that half the mummy's powers are based on vamp powers, and not reproduced in the book. [the original version, which, strictly speaking, only claimed to be fully compatible with Vampire and Werewolf (the only 2

Originally posted by Kurotowa
I really like the corebook/fatsplat model for Exalted. But it only works so well with Exalted because all the character types are, well, Exalted.
[snip]
My main point is that I think the natures of the main groups are so disimilar that they won't fit into the core/fat model as well. From my (admittedly brief) readthrough of DA:WW, it didn't look nearly as elegant as the Exalted fatsplats. Also, there is the trouble of a more splintered fanbase than Exalted.
Yeah, i'd expect there're more people interested in Medieval werewolf, but not Medieval vampire (myself, for one), than those interested in a particular Exalted group but not the one in the core book.

What I would look forward to, and what the ToJ setup makes me expect, is where the three big titles are all corebooks. Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage each as their own central nexus, and a set of fatsplats around each of them. You'd have Wraith and Mummy and other undead types working off of Vampire, and the creature of myth like Changeling clustered around Werewolf, and the occult doings and strange metaphysics like Demon spun off Mage. It would exploit the fatsplat system without making all the gamelines dependant on one book.

Hmmm...interesting idea, in principle. But i don't think it solves the problem--it still assumes that customers interested in, say, mummies, are also interested in vampires--as opposed to the differences being exactly why a person prefers one to the other. However, if there is sufficient similarity between the various core books that the "fatsplats" could work with *any* core book, i'd be satisfied.