[art]looking for some guidance

[Eric Lofgren]

I'm feeling a little stumped over this one. It's supposed to be a t-shirt design in an oriental/chinese vein. The AD wasn't asking for anything really specific, but the first version I sent him he didn't really approve of. It's of a chinese winged warrior next to a tomb guardian creature. I found the inspiration for that creature on the net in the shape of a sculpture. In my mind, the theme was to loosely encompass rightousness, strength, spirituality and judgement/accountability (notice the little scroll? ;) )Anyway, after some finagling with the design following some of his suggestions, I think I came up with a better one and I would like to hear your honest feedback on it. I really don't want to ditch the whole concept in favour of a new one, but I will do that if you guys think this horse is dead.

Any thoughts most valued and wise forum folk?
1st version-

<img src=http://www.ericlofgren.com/eric/air_spirit /img>

2nd version-

<img src=http://www.ericlofgren.com/eric/air_spirit2e /img>

Thanks much :)

[AndyHep]

Morning Eric,

This is a hard one. I was about to say I thought the second image was better, but I much prefer the first. Perhaps as a T-shirt design it lacks a bit of punch though, so the second image works a bit better, with a more dramatic pose.

Not so sure about the script in the second image - on the one hand it balances the image, but on the other it makes it very busy indeed and distracts me from the figures. In the end I'd be tempted to drop the script. I think the tiger works better than the lion-dog, or whatever it is.

I do have a couple of problems with both images. The pose of the man is one of them - He seems to be floating or balancing on one foot, but his back leg seems out of proportion ot his front - much shorter. Would it work with the back leg straightened so he is standing on a flat foot, leg locked at the knee?

Then the perspective between the animal and the man. I'm assuming that we are looking up at the man, while the animal is coming down a slope in our direction, but without landmarks to show this I'm left with the impression that the man is falling over backwards. I'd put some rocks or temple steps in to show us how we're supposed to be looking at the pair. Hope that helps.

Andy

[artkitty]

I like the sinuous movement of the tiger, I'd like to see more of that carried over into the figure. The script does seem to throw the composition off balance. If you want to include script elements, maybe use the small stamp-type signature or poetry used in a lot of asian art.

[Gryndyl]

Morning ( 9am Gryndyl time)
hmmm I am in agreement with Andy that the first peice is probably the stronger one but as far as a shirt design I would go with the second one. As far as the script. hmmm... as a thought I would bring it over to the left a little, perhaps scale it down just a bit. then I would add some steps coming from the right side of the tiger.
I think that would work well to resolve the perspective issues.
I hope that helps.
Gryndyl

[Catryn008]

hmmm... Out of the two, I like the first one better. (Gotta always be the odd ball, I know.)

But I LOVE the cat. Heck I even like the first one better. It gives it a mythical feel. (But the tiger is a STRONG oriental symbol, so I can see that change.)

BUT considering I had to do a Chinese pheonix for an author, I can feel your pain. (I think I went through twenty "roughs" until we got one she was comfortable with.) My curiousity is peaked with the AD not being excited about the first one. Do you think maybe he's wanting a more traditional oriental style?

And Eric, please don't shoot me, but on the second one the figure's raised left hand (behind the head) looks like he's given the V "victory" sign. It seems forced.

And I agree with ArtKitty. The cat causes the eye to move elegantly into the piece but the figure is static. I wonder if there would be a way to make it appear more like he's flying. (I'd love to see the wings be stretched out in an arch--even IF wings don't really bend that way--to continue the motion.) Maybe if he had on some more "flowing" garments that would also help that effect?

The other thing that is bothering me, is the mask. I liked the elegance of the face. But the mask would be a "cooler" t-shirt. It looks out of place almost like its too small for him or something.

Karen

But Eric, your style and such is awesome. Keep inspiring us! :P

[Andrew Dobell]

Hi Eric

You knew id Chime in here.

OK, im only addressing the new one here, im not sure of the mask to be honest. I'd have a look at some suits of Samurai Armour that incorporate a Mask for some Ideas on this.

The Tiger is excellent and should hopefully work quite well.
The script is good, what does it say?

[Eric Lofgren]

Originally posted by Andrew Dobell
Hi Eric

You knew id Chime in here.

OK, im only addressing the new one here, im not sure of the mask to be honest. I'd have a look at some suits of Samurai Armour that incorporate a Mask for some Ideas on this.

The Tiger is excellent and should hopefully work quite well.
The script is good, what does it say?

The guy is Chinese, not Japanese :) I was trying to break away from the flood of Japanese related imagery we are constantly inundated with. There is a ton of cool Chinese imagery out there that is equally engaging. Unfortunately, they tend to look derivative of each other.

As for the mask, Sohail was suggesting something along those lines. He feels that human faces in t-shirt designs don't do very well unless they are dressed up with spikes, horns etc. He liked the wings, though. I went with a more fierce demonic face that incorporated horns. I thought it was typical t-shirt fare, but this one is stumping me a bit. I personally like the second design, but everyone here is against it. Like Karen, I was taken with the mask concept and I'm wondering if maybe there's some good material there. With just a cool mask or two along with some kanji and tribal. Maybe the tiger as well. I dunno.


Thanks everyone for your excellent feedback :)

Oh, the script says Noble Spirit.

Edit- I wanted to adress Karen's comment on the "v" sign. I was recently watching a snippet from the movie Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Specifically the part where the little girl with the magical sword is fighting all the guys in the bar. She literally tears the place apart with that sword and her ability. But right at the end, as the last man falls, she enters a stance with the sword that incorporated that particular finger arrangement. Sword behind and across the lower back, middle and ring fingers pointing, raised above and slightly behind the head. A complete and harmonious stance that implied so much. It was lyrical in it's beauty and ferocity. I guess I was aiming for that.

[Andrew Dobell]

just a cool mask or two along with some kanji and tribal. Maybe the tiger as well.

Now that could be a Goer!

[ploboyko]

Eric,

Nice image! It's funny, the armor reminds me of a statue I used to create my character for the Thunderdome contest at the ConceptArt forum; I bet we used the same reference photo! Weird! Anyway, in my mind's eye I see a possible solution to your dilemma; I don't have photoshop available at my day job and my DSL at home is on the fritz, so please bear with this verbal description. I think a synthesis of the two would be the most successful image. Keep the helmet of the first, but incorporate the mask from the second. I like the bit of style and culture the helm represents. Drop the chin and consider removing the beard of the mask so it underlaps the pectoral, like in the first image, to get a better sense of overlapping form. I'd use the arms of the first figure, since the downward spear breaks up the figure's silhouette on the right side better and leads the eye to the tiger's shoulderblade. I'd keep the rest of the second image, including the tiger and the script(although i do love the horn nubs and tongue of the first beast). The only other thing I'd consider doing is to show more of the wing on the right side. Hopefully that makes sense, doesn't go against the art direction you've already received, and helps. Either way, can't wait to see it finished. Really good job.

PAT

[t y l e r]

Eric, I really like the second piece. Its very cool, and is quite striking.

As far as the composition goes, I think it would be fine if you just dropped a simple shape or design (such as a circle) behind the warrior.

That might be over simplifying things a bit, but that's my $.02.

T

[Spyros]

Ok Eric, I had to drop off an opinion as well. :) So Personally I like the concept.
Both pictures have strong elements. The tiger stands out better. The face on the second guy doesn't exactly give off the "noble spirt" impression and the mask seams to make his head a bit small. Perhaps making the mask longer would do the trick as Ploboyko suggested. I also like the idea of the helm, it does bring out more of the "noble" impression. The script is to large causing a balence shift. Perhaps leaving it the same size and dumping a tribal on the otherside might help that out, or maybe dropping it down just a bit, making the base seem wider or even just extending out the back wing a bit to make the shift back center. I have to agree with the opinion that the man seams to be leaping off the "beast" instead of flying. The upper hand on pic 2 definately needs your expertise. I like the spear idea better than the sword; for a flying warrior it just seams like a hurled or shot weapon makes more sence. Perhaps adding a bow/arrow and quiver to your fellow, might be an idea.
I like the positioning of the back wing better on the second pic, but I feel that we should see a bit more of the back wing. I wouldn't trash the idea if I were you, I have followed your art for some time, and I know you can make this work. I hope this helps. All in all it is a great start. I can't wait to see the finished product.:)

[JSpektr]

In general, I like the second one better.

My main issue: It looks like the guy is lifting his foot because the tiger just bumped him out of the way, or maybe he really has to use the bathroom and is doing a frantic little dance.

I know what you were going for in the stance, but it just doesn't translate to me. It might be the odd perspective, the foot on the ground is on a very different plane than his shoulders. The figure is also drawn in a very different perspective than the tiger (unless he/she is supposed to be falling backwards). Fix that, and put some space between the figure and the tiger, and I think it would work better.

The sword looks too pasted in, and isn't at a proper angle. The edge should be what we're looking at, not the flat.

The mask looks too small, and is placed strangely on the face.

Try extending the rear wing out past the figures body on the right side of the image. That will make it more clear that there is a second wind, and might balance things better with the writing on the other side.

Those are my suggestions. I really like the tiger.

[Catryn008]

Eric I tried to send you an 'email' or whatever this forum calls it, about this image and possible ways I saw to make it more fluid. Just curious to see if you got it...

Karen

[Scorpio]

Hell Eric, they both look good, but I like the first one, the human face. Looks like that terra-cotta army they excavated.

[Lightning]

Quick question:

Is this a single color line design tshirt or a full-color high-end silk screen tshirt design?

If it's single color my only comment beyond what everyone else has already said is that there might be too much detail, too many fine lines. Depends on the company that's printing them.

I think either beast is great, but the front paw seems almost too big? Maybe it's just the way I'm looking at it, or maybe my feline anatomy is rusty :)

Just my $.02

[blobsticks]

Hey Eric,

I think your concept is rock solid, no problem there at all.

I do prefere the top figure and prefere the bottom feline. The slinkyness (word?) of the bottom cat draws the eye in wonderfully.... but I don't think works aswell with the masked figure as it does with the top.

There are a few anatomy issues with that bottom guy that have been mentioned, but his mask/head also looks placed a little to far to the right.

I see AndyH's point about a horizon line but I don't think it's needed here, to me the guy doesn't look like he's falling back, more that we're looking up at him. But having some decorations like small ruins etc (to point to a horizon line or not) might be a nice idea anyway.

Also I think the guy looks like he's tilting ever so slightly to the right, which might be unbalancing it slightly.

There's my little crit.... all in all though both a fantastic examples of drawing yet again.

:)

Cheers,
Scott.

[Eric Lofgren]

Everyone, WOW. Thank you all so much for the input. This more than anything, is why I love this place :) I got way more than I bargained for in the way of excellent and insightful feedback.

And thank you to the good folks who e-mailed me as well :) I got some very good suggestions from Karen and Jennifer.

I think the general concensus is that the tiger works very well for the design along with elements from both figures. I will take great pains to tighten up the pose and I believe that Karen's e-mailed suggestion, supported with some diagrams, of a more curving figure is in order to keep the fluid eye line flowing through the design. As to the positionong of the tiger and the character, this is a t-shirt design, so aligning both to a horizon line didn't seem needed. The design is to be more graphic than illustrative, but I see the value of the thought.

Anyway, lot's to digest here so I'm off to do another version. I'll be sure to let you see what I come up with, though.


Thanks so much again everyone :)

[Jerusalem7]

The Finger Pose you're talking about, it's used in chinese straight-sword work and you can find more use of it in Tai Chi movements.
I don't like to critique (as I havent put anything up for you all to instruct me on), but my first impression of the second picture was that the man was facing the wrong direction. Because of the finger-pose, I felt like he should have been facing the opposite direction.
From a martial arts standpoint, was the AD adamant on the weapon being a sword? The position of the body and the arms would also be very good for a Polearm or spear...maybe even a Monk's Spade (type of polearm, decidely chinese though)

Regardless, Eric, your art always astounds me.