Hither Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-Earth

[vgunn]

Well as alternative to all the unfortunate and disconcerting news coming from Decipher and its LOTR RPG, I'd like to direct those interested to my new effort.

It is an unofficial Middle-Earth Roleplaying game that I have decided to write. At this point it is still in its infancy, yet is growing every day. The game came about because I was not satisfied with the CODA adaptation to the setting. At first, I chose to just convert over to the cinematic version of Unisystem found in Buffy. And well the campaign played out very successfully, I wanted something designed specific for Middle-Earth. A system that would add some sort of spiritual attributes like Pendragon or Riddle of Steel and one that would stay as close to Tolkien's image of magic. I needed a system that would allow for a under-powered character like Samwise Gamgee to defeat a powerful Shelob in battle. Yet, for the most part, remain unbalanced in terms of the power of individual races (Noldor are vastly superior to Hobbits for instance). I wanted a system that would have very fast combat that could be both gritty and heroic. I wanted a system that was rules-lite that would be as transparent as it could be (not one that dominates the setting), yet still has some substance. Well I hope that Hither Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-Earth will be it for myself and others.

Now that my 4-month old triplets are sleeping through the night and I've finished my third novel which has gone out to the publisher, I have a bit of time to spend on this project. It is not something I've done for profit or personal gain. I'd just like to share a possible solution to those who want to rpg in the greatest setting ever created.

In the last week or so, I have sent out nearly 300 emails with a 10 page teaser version of the quickstart rules. Finally (being the complete html idiot) I have the website www.hither-lands.com up and running with this same pdf file. Actually I just finished the first page of the magic section, so its up to 11 pages now. The quickstart rules will be finished with 30-50 pages and a character sheet. I am writting about a page a day (give or take) so the beta version should be complete within a month. The website will also grow to include more downloads, a developer log, and forums dedicated to the game and all things Middle-Earth.

So, if you are interested, head out to the site and take a look at the pdf. Feel free to PM or email me feedback, suggestions, comments about Hither Lands. It is my goal to have the most in-depth, enjoyable and true to the spirit of Tolkien RPG for anyone to enjoy.

[vgunn]

I do not want to make this seem like an ad/promo or something so maybe I should clarify the post.

How is it different than LOTR?

1. No classes or orders
2. Does not use 2d6 for resolution
3. There are fewer (broadly defined) skills
4. Combat is quicker and deadlier
5. Magic is more limited (however can be stronger) than in LOTR RPG.
6. Hroa (body) and Fea (spirit) statistics as well as the standard set of attributes.

Just some of the things right off the top of my head!

[Niall]

I just gave the rules a quick glance and really liked what I saw. Unlike most homebrews, it seems very simple and quite true to the source.

Come on guys, give it a look!

[Harry]

I like it too vgunn. The sample ruleset pdf I reviewed definitely seems to have the spirit of Middle Earth running through it. I think it will allow fluid story based play so I can promise that I will be using it with my players once it is complete.

Great work!

Regards

Harry

[3rd Level Fighter]

Printing it off for a read now...you did say it was coming soon!

Cheers!

[Jesse_Lowe]

At first, hasty glance, the thread title was "*Hitler* Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-Earth" which, I tell you, sparked some interesting campaign ideas.

[The Ent]

Originally posted by Jesse_Lowe
At first, hasty glance, the thread title was "*Hitler* Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-Earth" which, I tell you, sparked some interesting campaign ideas.

Just give the Rohirrim German WW2 helmets, and go :eek: :eek: :eek:

*the Ent runs back to Fangorn and hides*

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Jesse_Lowe
At first, hasty glance, the thread title was "*Hitler* Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-Earth" which, I tell you, sparked some interesting campaign ideas.

Whew, glad I didn't back accident throw that L in there. Yeah I think the thread would have taken a whole other direction!:eek:

[Varyar]

I'll have to give it another read or two to get a handle on the rules (mechanics and I don't get along, what can I say?), but the feel of it all is perfect for Middle-earth. The final product should be wicked awesome.

[Handigar]

I've only skimmed it, but it looks good

[ADOC]

I too have just managed to skim the rules, but I have to say it looks very promising. I certainly can see the influences of Unisystem, and I like the importance of a character's Fea. Certainly want to see how the system actually plays, so keep up the good work.

[vgunn]

Well, I have added the first version of a character sheet to the site for all to see. It is just a test and not the final version, but there have been many already asking for one - so there you go!

Page 12 is being written as of now (the magic section will proceed slowly as it takes much more thought and care to put together) it will discuss the four sources of Sub-Creation and other things.

Glad for all the feedback and opinions thus far.

Thanks.

[Cold Black Wind]

From what I have seen I like it so far. I am wondering where did you get the background from?

[Fred]

Vgunn,

I only skimmed it too, but it seems good. I see you went for a kind of hybrid of CODA and Unisystem. Fir now, I have only a couple of comments. Although you rescued the d12 from oblivion, why not use a more common die, like d10 (I was going to say 2d6, but I think you don´t want them because of the bell curve). From my quick reading, I don´t see a lot of uses for Lot except to drain Quality points. It seems Valor is much better for that specific function.

Tchau!

[damiller]

Hey

This is great. I liked the CODA system, but was not impressed with the character creation system (too long for my tastes.)

But the thing I really disliked was the fact that I felt it was nothing more than DnD in disguise. I wanted a game that felt more like the Romantic Epic of Middle Earth. Sure the main characters can kick ass, but they also have character.

I also like "weak" magic, magic that seems to be limited but is actually quite powerful if you are creative enough.

OH, and I WANT to do some art work for you for this project. Let me know what you need and I will be happy to do it for you!

d :D

[skegmonkey]

to be honest i dont see what is wrong with the old merp system.

Fun critical tables an excellent amount of background material and sourcebooks i know people who havent read the books but from useing merp sourcebooks they know more about middle earth than people who have read it.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Cold Black Wind
From what I have seen I like it so far. I am wondering where did you get the background from?

The background is from the site Rolozo Tolkien and it is from John Howe "The Decent into Rivendell - January 1997". The image is great, because it is setup allows for two columns, so it is well-served as background.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Fred
Vgunn,

I only skimmed it too, but it seems good. I see you went for a kind of hybrid of CODA and Unisystem. Fir now, I have only a couple of comments. Although you rescued the d12 from oblivion, why not use a more common die, like d10 (I was going to say 2d6, but I think you don´t want them because of the bell curve). From my quick reading, I don´t see a lot of uses for Lot except to drain Quality points. It seems Valor is much better for that specific function.

Tchau!

Fred,

Unisystem definately makes it influences apparent, not so much with CODA. I guess the wound levels in are way are similar, but there are a number of other systems which do the same thing - Silhouette is a system that I like as well as Synergy from Blue Planet (the damage type is more like Shadowrun) .

Unisystem uses d10 and while I certainly am a big fan of it, I wanted to do something different. The d12 has always been an under-appreciated die and not used as the primary mechanic in many games at all. The d12 also allows for a bit more randomness and slows uber-powered progression (comparing say a Noldor from Hither Lands or an Experienced Hero from Buffy).

Yes, no-bell curve for me.

It also fits very well fit the levels 1-6 (12 max for some) and the various modifiers that come into play.

Lot is not meant to be used a lot, but can make for interesting gameplay at times. For those that have burned all Valor, it may be the only thing they have left.

I will have two examples where Lot will described, the first is when Bard kills Smaug and the other when Sam encounters Shelob. Maybe then you will see the way it can be used. (BTW - this is the one Quality I too am having a problem with! So any suggestions to improve it I will listen).

[vgunn]

Originally posted by damiller

But the thing I really disliked was the fact that I felt it was nothing more than DnD in disguise. I wanted a game that felt more like the Romantic Epic of Middle Earth. Sure the main characters can kick ass, but they also have character.

I also like "weak" magic, magic that seems to be limited but is actually quite powerful if you are creative enough.
d :D

damiller,

I will email you about the artwork.

This game is far from CODA or DnD in respect to classes and levels. You are very right, people certainly may enjoy those systems, but I really do not (however I do like Mutants and Masterminds!) and have found that it just doesn't work for Middle-Earth.

Decipher was on the right track for magic, some of the design was very solid, however I saw a number of glaring flaws that really moved away from the spirit of maigc in Tolkien's works.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by skegmonkey
to be honest i dont see what is wrong with the old merp system.

Fun critical tables an excellent amount of background material and sourcebooks i know people who havent read the books but from useing merp sourcebooks they know more about middle earth than people who have read it.

skegmonkey,

I still have a huge collection of MERP stuff. I played in many campaigns using that system. But I can tell you the system was very clunky for Middle-Earth and the magic elements were way off. I still use MERP for resource material as well as from Decipher's game.

[Niall]

I printed the pdf out today and read it in detail. I like it even more than yesterday. The char sheet is pretty good too. I just wonder how much more complex the final game will be.

I'd love to see the battle-moves and a detailed magic system. I hope that the general resolution mechanic and character generation won't get much more complicated.

Anyway, great work. If you need any help, just PM me. I'd really like to translate the game into German for example.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Niall
I printed the pdf out today and read it in detail. I like it even more than yesterday. The char sheet is pretty good too. I just wonder how much more complex the final game will be.

I'd love to see the battle-moves and a detailed magic system. I hope that the general resolution mechanic and character generation won't get much more complicated.

Anyway, great work. If you need any help, just PM me. I'd really like to translate the game into German for example.

Niall thanks again for the positive remarks.

Really the game will be deeper, but not really anymore complex. The resolution(s) are the same, so there is no change there. Strengths and Weaknesses are like feats, merits, or of similar type that adds to the depth of a character. There are some racial merits which have not been detailed yet and of course magic, but really not anything to change the scope of the game.

Battle-feats will be similar to those found in Buffy and other games. The key is not to go too overboard on them, so it will take careful planning. This is an area which playtesters will be of great help and will have an impact on the final version of the game. So suggestions are welcomed!

Character generation is very straightforward:

Choose a race

This will set the pre-determined number of points to spend on Qualities and Skills. Qualities form the basis for things like Lifeblood, Fortitude, Pace, Burden and so on - not just random numbers.

Race will also indicate the number of Valor Points and also the number of points which can be spent on Strengths and Weaknesses. Each race has some "free" merits and flaws to begin the game.

In the FEA - Honor, Duty, and Ardor will be defined by the individual.

[Niall]

Regarding the combat system, I had the following thoughts. Basically I like that you have only one roll for to-hit and damage. You could even have "mook"-orks get a fixed score so that one roll is all you need for a single attack.

One problem about one roll-engines (like Silhouette for example) is that it boils down to this: The final damage will be: Attackers Attribute + Skill + Roll + Weapon Threat - Defenders Attribute - Skill - Roll Shield - Armour


This has two problems:
Wearing armour will be counter-productive if the encumbrance reduces your attributes, as this will not only increase your chances of getting hit, but also increase the damage you take when you get hit.


Also, if I understood the rules correctly, shields are much more useful than armour as they reduce the chance to hit, which in turn reduces the number of successes the attacker has, even if he hits, making a +3 shield much better than a +3 armour. Maybe limiting the bonus of shileds would be an answer?

[Deathlok]

Originally posted by Niall
This has two problems:
Wearing armour will be counter-productive if the encumbrance reduces your attributes, as this will not only increase your chances of getting hit, but also increase the damage you take when you get hit.

In the versions I've read and played, armor does not reduce attributes. It might increase the difficulty of some rolls (Stunting rolls to run along a rope; Survival rolls to swim across a river...), but there is no armor penalty per se.


Also, if I understood the rules correctly, shields are much more useful than armour as they reduce the chance to hit, which in turn reduces the number of successes the attacker has, even if he hits, making a +3 shield much better than a +3 armour. Maybe limiting the bonus of shileds would be an answer?

Not quite. My opponent has a total bonus of 10 to his attack, I have a total bonus of 10 to my defense (from qualities and skills). His threat is 2.

Now, first, let's look at me wearing a suit of +2 armor. He rolls a 10, I roll a 5. He's hitting me for (20-15) 5 successes, +2 from his weapon, -2 from my armor. I lose 5 lifeblood.

Swap the +2 armor with a +2 shield. He rolls a 10, I roll a 5. He's hitting me (since 20 is greater than 10+5+2=17), and it's still for 5 successes, since shields do not absorb successes. His damage is 5, plus 2 for his weapon, minus none for my shield, since shields don't absorb damage. I take 7.

Armor only absorbs damage, shields only make you harder to hit.

(Is all that right, vgunn?)

[Niall]

Originally posted by Deathlok

Not quite. My opponent has a total bonus of 10 to his attack, I have a total bonus of 10 to my defense (from qualities and skills). His threat is 2.

Now, first, let's look at me wearing a suit of +2 armor. He rolls a 10, I roll a 5. He's hitting me for (20-15) 5 successes, +2 from his weapon, -2 from my armor. I lose 5 lifeblood.

Swap the +2 armor with a +2 shield. He rolls a 10, I roll a 5. He's hitting me (since 20 is greater than 10+5+2=17), and it's still for 5 successes, since shields do not absorb successes. His damage is 5, plus 2 for his weapon, minus none for my shield, since shields don't absorb damage. I take 7.

Armor only absorbs damage, shields only make you harder to hit.

(Is all that right, vgunn?) [/B]

Ok, that sounds pretty good. However, aren't shields still more powerful? After all, not getting hit is better than taking less damage, right?

[Jeph]

Looks cool. Would look cooler with a Viking-type titling font, though, and maybe a Cirth header with a Tengwar footer...

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Deathlok


In the versions I've read and played, armor does not reduce attributes. It might increase the difficulty of some rolls (Stunting rolls to run along a rope; Survival rolls to swim across a river...), but there is no armor penalty per se.[/B]

Josh is correct. Armor does not reduce attributes at all.

Should a character be attempting something that may effect balance while wearing some sort of bulky protection (ala crossing a river while in Full Protection) the Verse-smith could add a modifier to the the roll (in this case Stunting)

QUOTE]Originally posted by Deathlok
Not quite. My opponent has a total bonus of 10 to his attack, I have a total bonus of 10 to my defense (from qualities and skills). His threat is 2.

Now, first, let's look at me wearing a suit of +2 armor. He rolls a 10, I roll a 5. He's hitting me for (20-15) 5 successes, +2 from his weapon, -2 from my armor. I lose 5 lifeblood.

Swap the +2 armor with a +2 shield. He rolls a 10, I roll a 5. He's hitting me (since 20 is greater than 10+5+2=17), and it's still for 5 successes, since shields do not absorb successes. His damage is 5, plus 2 for his weapon, minus none for my shield, since shields don't absorb damage. I take 7.

Armor only absorbs damage, shields only make you harder to hit.

(Is all that right, vgunn?) [/B][/QUOTE]

Correct again Josh. It is assumed that should a Strike or Volley succeed, it got past any deflection the shield might have had.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Niall
Ok, that sounds pretty good. However, aren't shields still more powerful? After all, not getting hit is better than taking less damage, right?

Niall,

Here is where the playtesting will come in. To be honest, I'm not sure if the shield factor will be too powerful at this point. The groups running sessions have not indicated as much, but it is still early. My original thoughts were +1 and +2 only, with no Enchantments, but the weapons did not have Enchantments at the time either (Actually the Threat was up to 12 and that was entirely too high).

[vgunn]

Page 12 is complete and up on the website now.

Gives more detail on Enchantments:

- Sub-Creation
- Intent and Purpose
- Method
- Material
- Time and Effect
- Resonance

Page 13 cover the resolution for Enchantments and an example of Gandalf's magic.

I also edited out Verse-smith and replaced with Narrator.

[vgunn]

Page 13 is complete and will be on the site as soon as the server is up!

Here it is for review:


OUT OF THE FRYING-PAN
INTO THE FIRE

AN EXERPT FROM THE HOBBIT

‘He [Gandalf] gathered the huge pine-cones from the branches of his tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke.…’
‘…but this was a most horrible and uncanny fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and burned into them, and unless they rolled over quick they were soon all in flames….’


PUTTING IT INTO CONTEXT

In the dire scene described in part Gandalf created an Enchantment which he then used to thwart the advances of the Wargs, who had trapped the group in a tree. Had it not been for this mystical action, Mr. Baggins and the Dwarves may not have survived the encounter.

So how does Hither Lands take the Wizard’s effort and place it into the context of the game?

NAME: Colour-Flame
CRAFT: Dwimmer
INTENT: Creation (5)
PURPOSE: To frighten, burn and confuse
METHOD: Shape
MATERIAL: Pine-cone
TIME: Instant
EFFECT: 1 x per Success Level; opponent must make a Defend Roll at -2; opponent must make a Fear Test at -2
CORRUPTION: 0
TAINT: 1
RESONANCE: Very Little





BREAKING DOWN THE EXAMPLE

Gandalf the Grey has a Dwimmer-Craft Strength (Merit) of 8. Knowing that the situation is turning from bad to worse, he notices that the tree which they are stuck in may actually be an advantage. He quickly gathers a number of pine-cones near to him (we will call it five). Using the Enchantment of Dwimmer-Craft, he sets aflame the pine-cones and drops them down on the Wargs below.

NAME – Provides a word or phrase to describe the Effect.
CRAFT – Indicates the type of Enchantment used.
INTENT – This is the source of Sub-Creation and the level of its power.
PURPOSE – The reason(s) for the Intent
METHOD – Since we are unsure that any Word or Song is used, it is assumed that Gandalf shaped the flame.
MATERIAL – The pine-cone, naturally.
TIME – Dwimmer-Craft can be formed in an instant and there is also no indication of it being a Spell.
EFFECT – 1 x per Success Level, Gandalf takes his Strength (Merit) Dwimmer-Craft of 8 and adds it to his Will Quality of 9 and then rolls a d12. He then subtracts the Intent Power Level, which is a five (5) and if the total is 12 or above the Enchantment succeeds. Now the Warg(s) can make a Defend Roll to see if they can avoid the inflamed pine-cone, with a minus -2 penalty. Let’s assume Gandalf rolled a 7, so the total is 24 minus 5 for a total of 19. The Warg has a Defend of 4 and a Grace of 5. The Warg rolls a 6, so the total is 15 minus -2 for the penalty which leaves it at 13. The difference is 6 (19-13=6) and at x 1 per Success Level (6), this is the Lifeblood lost for the Warg. Gandalf Enchanted five pine-cones, so the next Warg makes a Defend Roll and so on. After this, the Wargs will need to make a Fear Test (-2 penalty) or flee in terror. The Enchantment is not evil, so there is no Corruption. If Gandalf were to continue to use this Enchantment, he would eventually be Tainted (Enamored with fire in case) and dire consequences would develop. Once Taint is equal to his Will, he must pass a Test or the Taint is added to the character sheet. Taint will dissolve over time (at one point per week) should the Enchantment not be used again during this time. There is very little Resonance since the Enchantment was limited in Intent and Purpose. Now there is still the matter of weariness. All Enchantments cause a loss in Fortitude. The Intent Power Level is equal to the amount of Fortitude lost. If the Enchantment attempt were to fail, then the loss would be doubled. So if Gandalf failed, then he would have lost 10 points of Fortitude. This weariness remains (until rested) and should any further Enchantments be attempted, then penalty modifiers would apply. And there you have the breakdown.

[Tancred]

Looks pretty cool so far vgunn. I have a couple of questions about the magic example, that maybe you could elaborate on:

1) What's the rationale behind a spell costing double fatigue if it fails? It's just I can see players getting frustrated if they aren't so good at casting magic - not only does nothing happen, but their chance at another go or a different casting later on drops significantly as well. I'd be inclined to think the spell costs the same or less than a successful casting.

2) How does taint fit in? I'm not sure I understand what it represents. Corruption, I get - Saruman for example - but how does taint differ and what aspect of Tolkein's stories does this emulate? I think an example of a tainted character from the books might make taint's role in the game a little clearer.

I think the Gandalf example is spot on - taking stuff from the books and showing how the mechanics handle it is a great way to make things clear IMO.

[vgunn]

Tancred,

Radagast the Brown is a perfect example of a character that has been Tainted but not Corrupted

He became so enamored of his animal and plant friends that he lost all sight of what he was sent to Middle-earth to facilitate, which was the resistance by the free peoples against Sauron.

Radagast studied so deeply and so enthralled by this subect that he lost all sense of duty and reality - thus the Taint. His constant use of Dwimmer-Craft to speak with the bird, animals, and others ended up completely overtaking him.

It is certainly possible that Beorn (and his skin-changer ability) too was Tainted. Gandalf mentions he is a "skin-changer and a bit of a wizard", now understanding the nature of magic in Middle-Earth and how difficult it is to come by there could be chance that Beorn fell into a similar trap as did Radagast.

[vgunn]

Tancred,

The penalty for using Enchantments has got to be high in Middle-Earth. Really, there should not be many running around at all. So the cost is something of a preventative measure.

One thing I have not written yet is the number of free levels certain races begin the game with, that would offset the possible casting failure.

Example:

Noldor (2 Spell-Craft, 4 Lore-Craft, and 3 Dwimmer-Craft)

So they have some strength prior to buying any Strengths (Merits)

(buying a level of Spell-Craft costs 3, Lore-Craft costs 6, and Dwimmer-Craft 9)

Another thing is that the level of the Enchantment ranges from 1-12. So casting something with a low (easy) level, the cost in endurance is not great at all.

[Niall]

Two more questions:

What in-game incentive does a player have to use a smaller weapon? As the only relevant weapon stat is Threat so far, a hobbit would best arm himself with a pike.

The other thing I wondered about is why the target number for skill checks is 11, and more difficult actions get a penalty on skill, easy ones a bonus. Why not vary the target number, with 6 for very easy actions and 17 for very hard ones?

I hope I don't sound overly critical, but the reason I write so much is because I really think that this game has lots of potential.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Niall
Two more questions:

What in-game incentive does a player have to use a smaller weapon? As the only relevant weapon stat is Threat so far, a hobbit would best arm himself with a pike.

The other thing I wondered about is why the target number for skill checks is 11, and more difficult actions get a penalty on skill, easy ones a bonus. Why not vary the target number, with 6 for very easy actions and 17 for very hard ones?

I hope I don't sound overly critical, but the reason I write so much is because I really think that this game has lots of potential.

Niall,

Ask away, its not a problem at all.

Okay, have not put in anything about the actual races - yet. There will be a set of weapons which is common to each culture. Using weapons outside that culture will cause a penalty modifier. So, if a Hobbit from the Shire wanted to use a Pike, sure he could. The Threat of the weapon doesn't change (getting run-through by a Hobbit or Elf isn't going to feel much different) but the chance to Succeed with a Strike will. Lets assume for a weapon like that the Hobbit would have a -6 penalty modifer.

A good Narrator and fellow players should also use a bit of common-sense when gaming and understand that a Hobbit wielding a Pike or Lance, doesn't seem right.

Having a stable, floor number keep it nice and simple - The Narrator immediately knows that the min is 12 and thus makes play run quicker and more smoothly. Also remember that even though someone may Succeed, they may not always Succeed high enough for the end result to be meaningful.

If a Elven character is attempting something extremely easy +6 and is talented say a 4 in the Quality and a 4 in the Skill used - with a (14) you already know that he will succeed, now roll the d12 to see just how well he did.

Now take that same situation but use a meager Hobbit with only a 1 in the Quality and a 1 in the Skill. The total is (8) prior to the action, so there is a chance that despite the fact the Elf succeeded, the Hobbit may still fail even though it is classified as an easy action - this makes for very interesting gameplay.

[Tancred]

Originally posted by vgunn
Tancred,

Radagast the Brown is a perfect example of a character that has been Tainted but not Corrupted

Sorry, my mistake - you did give Radagast as an example in your .pdf, I just forgot about him. Makes sense to me now.

[The Ent]

Looks good! :)

You'd better make those Dunlendings really tough, though - I've just read the Bran Mak Morn stories by R.E.Howard, and a Bran-like Dunlending warrior would be cool to play. Especially if it included kicking some Rohir ass :cool:

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Tancred
Sorry, my mistake - you did give Radagast as an example in your .pdf, I just forgot about him. Makes sense to me now.

Tancred,

No problem. I will provide other examples as well and try to make it as clear as possible.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by The Ent
Looks good! :)

You'd better make those Dunlendings really tough, though - I've just read the Bran Mak Morn stories by R.E.Howard, and a Bran-like Dunlending warrior would be cool to play. Especially if it included kicking some Rohir ass :cool:

Dunlendings...we don't need no stinking Dun...well you get the point. :)

Actually the question is how to place them. Middle-Men or Low-Men.

Quote:
"When the Númenoreans returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age, they encountered many Men which were obviously related to the Atani: they classified these Men as Middle Men, and established friendly relations with them. Examples are the Rohirrim, the Men of Dale, and the Breelanders.

Other Men, such as the Dunlendings, were not recognised as Middle Men because they were related to the Haladin rather than Bëorians or Marachians, and they were hostile to Númenor.

In the FirstAge it is told that the ancestors of the Haladin crossed the Anduin and settled in the WhiteMountains. There they encountered the Drúedain, and the two peoples lived in close proximity as friends. When the Haladin moved north to Beleriand, a branch of the Drúedain accompanied them. The rest of the "pre-Haladin"* remained in the vales of the EredNimrais, until they were mastered by a strange race of Men from the east. Many moved into the westlands beyond the Gap of Rohan to escape the yoke of the newcomers, and settled in a region which would later become known as Dunland. Others of the "pre-Haladin" spread into Enedwaith and Minhiriath in the late First Age."

So under this logic it would be bes to drop them into the Low Men category.

More research will need to be done on my part.

[ADOC]

I know Niall talked about this earlier. But what about another way to affect someone just going for the larger weapon. Seeing you have a weariness type category in Foritude, what about giving items with a greater amount of threat an additional Fortitude penalty. Just a thought.

By the way, loved the Gandalf example I agree with Tancred very nicely done.

Keep up the good work!

[Niall]

Originally posted by vgunn
Having a stable, floor number keep it nice and simple - The Narrator immediately knows that the min is 12 and thus makes play run quicker and more smoothly. Also remember that even though someone may Succeed, they may not always Succeed high enough for the end result to be meaningful.

If a Elven character is attempting something extremely easy +6 and is talented say a 4 in the Quality and a 4 in the Skill used - with a (14) you already know that he will succeed, now roll the d12 to see just how well he did.

Now take that same situation but use a meager Hobbit with only a 1 in the Quality and a 1 in the Skill. The total is (8) prior to the action, so there is a chance that despite the fact the Elf succeeded, the Hobbit may still fail even though it is classified as an easy action - this makes for very interesting gameplay.

Hmmm, maybe we are misunderstanding each other. As I understood the rules, actions that are more easier or more difficult than standard actions give you a penalty or bonus on skill, the Target number always being the same.

If you use varying Targets, a normal action will still be a 12. If an action is easier or harder you just use the appropriate target number - skipping one step of calculation (admittedly not a hard one). So if the TN of an easy action is 6 or 7, a Quality 1, Skill 1 hobbit will still have a hard time succeeding at it.

[vgunn]

Niall,

Sorry I didn't state it clearer.

A couple of reasons for having the set number.

1. Qualities and Skills are the indicators of what a character's natural abilities - these are the stable numbers (with higher of course indicating one is more skillful); while the d12 represents the chance, randomness of the mechanic.

2. The floor number being set at 12 is done because the modifiers you spoke of are not used often. The general guidelines is that most rolls will fall under the Normal category with no modifier. Having the floor means that higher rolls on the d12 are rewarded with a greater chance of success.

3. Because even if an action is given the easiest modifier +6, the Narrator may still want more success levels (beyond the 1 for hitting 12).

I do see your point, I guess from playing Buffy for a while now, it has not been a problem for me to add that extra step.

Hopefully this answered your question.

[skegmonkey]

Originally posted by vgunn
skegmonkey,

I still have a huge collection of MERP stuff. I played in many campaigns using that system. But I can tell you the system was very clunky for Middle-Earth and the magic elements were way off. I still use MERP for resource material as well as from Decipher's game.

You are correct, magic was totally rotten in that system.

[Niall]

So what happens if the clueless hobbit from the example does something very hard? Will he add -4 to the d12 roll?

[Niall]

May I ask what program you used to make the character sheet? I'd really like to create a German version of it so that I could playtest the game with my group.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Niall
So what happens if the clueless hobbit from the example does something very hard? Will he add -4 to the d12 roll?

Yes. The Hobbit is attempting to swim across the Brandywine River. Chances are he is going to drown, but he tries it anyway.

Hobbit has a Q of 1 and a Skill of 1 = 2

Difficult is a modifier of -4.

Highest possible total is 10 (with a 12 on the die).

So the only way he could succeed is by using Valor or perhaps Lot.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Niall
May I ask what program you used to make the character sheet? I'd really like to create a German version of it so that I could playtest the game with my group.

Can you believe MS Word. :)

I can send it to you in that format, if you like.

[Niall]

That would most definately rock. I'll PM you my e-mail address.

[Zealot]

I am going to look at it later, but here is a link to the LotR font.

http://www.dafont.com/en/theme.php?cat=802&page=4

Z

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Zealot
I am going to look at it later, but here is a link to the LotR font.

http://www.dafont.com/en/theme.php?cat=802&page=4

Z

Zealot,

Yep, got it already and it is used in some of the fonts.

Thanks for the link.

[The Ent]

Originally posted by vgunn
Dunlendings...we don't need no stinking Dun...well you get the point. :)

Actually the question is how to place them. Middle-Men or Low-Men.

*snip rest*



Weren't the Haladin one of the three Houses of the Edain, though? I may be remembering wrong, of course, but wasn't that the House of Turin Turambar? :confused:

I know that according to some they're "Easterlings", but while they're dark-haired that seems a bit harsh...;)

Also, some of them seem to have a lot of Rohir and possibly Dunadan (or at least, Arnorian) blood in them...those of the lowlands directly west of Rohan and Gondor, that is...

I may be wrong of course.

Of course, there are always those Gondorian mountain folk... probably at least related - "cousins" as it were...

[vgunn]

Really they are hard to place. I can see arguments for either.

Origins:

They were a sullen folk, akin to the ancient inhabitants of the White Mountain valleys whom Isildur cursed. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue.

When the Rohirrim established their realms near their lands, they engaged in conflicts with them. But the Rohirrim were much better equipped and had the allowance of Gondor, thus the Dunledings were reduced to withdraw. They never forgot their hatred against the Mark and they allied with Saruman in the War of the Ring.

During the Great Plague the Dunlendings suffered, like all the peoples of Arnor and Gondor, in the Great Plague, but less than most, since they dwelt apart and had few dealings with other men.

'The Haldin were lesser of stature and less eager for lore than the other houses of the Edain, and delighted in solitude, 'wandering free in the green woods while the wonder of the lands of the Eldar was new upon them.'


>Halmir
/ \
Glóredhel = Haldir Hareth = Galdor
| / \
Handir Huor Húrin
| | / \
Brandir Tuor Túrin Nienor


My thinking is to drop them into the Low Men category, but this would mean that the Men of Bree would also come to this as well.

[vgunn]

"lesser of stature"

This certainly is telling.

[The Ent]

Originally posted by vgunn
"lesser of stature"

This certainly is telling.

"[...]but I looked at the hillmen and they seemed over large for me"

That's Gimli speaking...:D

They may be described as "tall and grim" too, but that may be the uruks - I don't know! :D
"Tall and dark" would probably describe the Beornings as well as the Dunlendings (Beorn himself at any rate). Any relation???

A people whose unarmored foot warriors are able to terrorize the Rohirrim thoroughly throughout history has better have some oomph!

The Haladin did fight on the side of the Noldo against Melkor, didn't they? They weren't 1st Age Easterlings at any rate and are not described as "swarthy" I think...

I know I'm being silly, btw, but I've always been a supporter of the Dunnish team in the annual Dunland vs. Rohan bout :D

You'd probably come up with a better/cooler description than Jackson (beggar cavemen with scrap iron) or MERP (Scots! :confused: )!

Allmost entirely unrelated:
The only time I ever played MERP as a player rather than a GM i played a Dunlending warrior...at least he got the honor of being the last PC to go down fighting Trolls, managing to break one Troll's hip in the process! Cool or what?

[NPC Balbinus]

I think this is starting to look very good indeed, I'm short of time so I'm only posting criticism here, that doesn't mean I'm not impressed.

I strongly suggest you drop Burden and Pace. Looking at the rules light nature of the rest of the game how often will this kind of attention to detail be required? The amount a character can lift over their head? I don't think Tolkein-esque gaming requires a knowledge of how much a character can benchpress and this adds nothing to the game IMO. Same for Pace, it's not DnD and I really doubt you need exact distances in the game.

Combat is streamlined, but measurement of carrying stuff and how far you can move is DnDesque in its complexity. These just don't fit the game.

Quality limits. The concept makes sense to me but I think some differentiation is required. Sindar can have any stat higher than a Dwarf, even Might, that seems odd to me. I'd have thought Elves would have higher maximum Grace than Might. Dwarves higher Might than Grace (again both maxima are presently the same). Hobbits IMO also could have a higher maximum Will than the other races, I don't think the difference in Valour is quite enough to really explain why Frodo could take the ring when nobody else could. Two points more valour hardly makes one a fitter ringbearer when you're outclassed in every other way including Lot and Will. But a higher Will would get you there when others failed.

So, good stuff but I think some aspects do still need further development.

Any chance of an example Goblin or Orc?

[vgunn]

Originally posted by NPC Balbinus
I think this is starting to look very good indeed, I'm short of time so I'm only posting criticism here, that doesn't mean I'm not impressed.

I strongly suggest you drop Burden and Pace. Looking at the rules light nature of the rest of the game how often will this kind of attention to detail be required? The amount a character can lift over their head? I don't think Tolkein-esque gaming requires a knowledge of how much a character can benchpress and this adds nothing to the game IMO. Same for Pace, it's not DnD and I really doubt you need exact distances in the game.

Combat is streamlined, but measurement of carrying stuff and how far you can move is DnDesque in its complexity. These just don't fit the game.

Quality limits. The concept makes sense to me but I think some differentiation is required. Sindar can have any stat higher than a Dwarf, even Might, that seems odd to me. I'd have thought Elves would have higher maximum Grace than Might. Dwarves higher Might than Grace (again both maxima are presently the same). Hobbits IMO also could have a higher maximum Will than the other races, I don't think the difference in Valour is quite enough to really explain why Frodo could take the ring when nobody else could. Two points more valour hardly makes one a fitter ringbearer when you're outclassed in every other way including Lot and Will. But a higher Will would get you there when others failed.

So, good stuff but I think some aspects do still need further development.

Any chance of an example Goblin or Orc?

Balbinus,

Really both are fairly simple - no more than say Buffy. Besides, you can take or leave it - either way it is not critical to play. But it does sounds like I need to do a better job of explaining the rules.

I guess appearance can be deceiving. Despite the lithe build, I've always seen the Eldar as being incredibly strong

Quote:
"Their size would be the same as that of Men, who were yet to be created, but Elves would be stronger in spirit and limb, and would not grow weak with age, only fairer and wiser."

Outside the Noldor or Sindar they are the strongest of the races (equal to the Silvan).

As far as the Will issue, yes it would appear that the Hobbits get short-changed. However, they will have a racial bonus on Tests of Will vs. Corruption. I have not added this yet, but is coming soon.

[Deathlok]

Balbinus:

I had a longish answer typed up, but I screwed something up and didn't get to submit it. Long story short, I think the answer to both concerns is Racial Strengths:

Hobbits will, in all likelihood, get some sort of bonus against Corruption checks. (at least, I seem to recall this possibility being raised and meeting with general approval)

(Another possibility would be to base the difficulty of the Ruling Ring's Corruption check on the strength of the character making it. This would be complicated, but it seems to be the way things work. Gandalf notes that the strong always seem to succumb to the Ring in spite of their strength, while Frodo manages to resist for the most part... Maybe you need a number of successes equal to twice your lowest Quality to resist the Ring? Characters like Isildur or Gandalf would need to get something like 8 to 10 successes, while Frodo only needs 2 or 4. That, combined with Frodo's relatively high Will and high Loyalty and Honor might see him through. I dunno, just throwing something out there.)

I don't know that it's true that the strongest possible Dwarf is stronger than the strongest possible Elf, but even if it were, Dwarves could still get some sort of Racial Strength bonus to their Might Quality. The Racial Quality maximums work in the vast majority of cases, so I think scrapping it over one possible inconsistency is a bit hasty.

EDIT: and, in the meantime, Val beat me to it :)

[vgunn]

Originally posted by The Ent
"[...]

The Haladin did fight on the side of the Noldo against Melkor, didn't they? They weren't 1st Age Easterlings at any rate and are not described as "swarthy" I think...

Allmost entirely unrelated:
The only time I ever played MERP as a player rather than a GM i played a Dunlending warrior...at least he got the honor of being the last PC to go down fighting Trolls, managing to break one Troll's hip in the process! Cool or what?

Yes, but the line had seriously been degraded by the Third Age.

Are they any greater than say Easterlings or Southrons? Knowing this could sway the decision, I am still looking into it.

Cool on your MERP adventure. II had a lot of fun playing with MERP, despite the clunk. BTW - I didn't like their interpretation either, but I think it was better than PJ/Decipher's version.

[The Ent]

I've always seen the Noldo elves as superhuman - better than the best human ever, in all respects - and giving them way better stats & abilities than everyone else is okay in my book (I'd play a Dunlending anyway :D ). Possibly I'd make them an npc race, allthough that may be a bit harsh?

The Sinda...well, they're not as superhuman as the Noldo, but they should still be pretty good at pretty much. Similar to the Noldo stat-wise, only lesser? They don't have the pride thing of the Noldo however, making them much more functional...

Silvan elves are probably the only Elven race that shouldn't be treated as superhuman...they're the most "standard elf"-like Tolkien Elves. Probably quicker and more agile than Men, and with the "standard Elf abilities" but no way as good as Sinda; in The Hobbit especially they don't seem much better than Dwarves and Men.

[Denys]

Vgunn -- some real nice stuff so far. I'll assume you've looked at Song of Arda, the Pendragon Middle-earth conversion? The authors did a terrific, though incomplete, job and the best features were the numerous passions to be rated by the player -- I find it really helps drive the feel of J.R.R.'s fiction by cementing character traits and motivations. I noticed that the character sheet you have has "song of arda" undernearth the Hither-lands label. Had you given that a shot at some point?

- Ian

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Ian Noble
Vgunn -- some real nice stuff so far. I'll assume you've looked at Song of Arda, the Pendragon Middle-earth conversion? The authors did a terrific, though incomplete, job and the best features were the numerous passions to be rated by the player -- I find it really helps drive the feel of J.R.R.'s fiction by cementing character traits and motivations. I noticed that the character sheet you have has "song of arda" undernearth the Hither-lands label. Had you given that a shot at some point?
- Ian

Ian,

Yes I loved the passions used in SoA (much like Pendragon). I wanted to create something similar, but also keep it simple. Thus the creation of Fea. The three Honor, Duty, and Ardor really condense and bring out these passions Outside the Valor, Corruption and Taint). Plus, I think they will be easier to manage during the game. Often times spiritual attributes look great, but are difficult to interpret during gameplay. An example is some the problems people have with them in the Riddle of Steel game.

Funny thing on the Song of Arda logo. I used it to measure the size of the Hither Lands logo for the Character Sheet. But I could not get the darn thing erased. So I just pasted it over the top. Again, writing I'm fine with - but formatting, html and other techno things I'm a lamo. The website has been a real adventure in frustration for me!

[vgunn]

Hither Lands Update:

Should have a few more pages by the end of the week.

- Finishing up rest of magic segment.
- Starting on Battle-Feats
- Starting on Strengths and Weaknesses
- Race and Culture information

Here is one thing that I probably will include (not sure if it will
be an optional rule or not):

Size To Hit Smaller Threat vs. Smaller

Very Large -3 +3
Large -2 +2
Normal -1 +1
Small -- --

Basically each size greater gets a bonus to Threat, but a penalty to
hit. Thus a Dragon attacking a Hobbit would have a -3 to hit, but
would increase the threat by +3.

[The Ent]

Originally posted by vgunn
Yes, but the line had seriously been degraded by the Third Age.

Are they any greater than say Easterlings or Southrons? Knowing this could sway the decision, I am still looking into it.

Cool on your MERP adventure. II had a lot of fun playing with MERP, despite the clunk. BTW - I didn't like their interpretation either, but I think it was better than PJ/Decipher's version.

Good points and thanks for the cool! :)

I don't know if they should be better than Easterlings and Southrons - of course the Easterlings are a varied bunch, and the Southrons...well, the black ones seem pretty big and strong, I doubt the Dunlendings are bigger/stronger. It's just that the Hillmen seem to be winning roughly as many battles as the Rohirrim, even on Rohirric soil (open plains! Against I]ROHIRRIM!!![/I] :eek: ) and it doesn't look like they have a very big numerical advantage...

I guess the Dunland thing's just one of my strange quirks. Comes from too much Howard/Conan exposure I guess...I imagine them as some sort of Cimmerian/Pict mix...

As to the MERP thing, I should've known better - 7th level characters against Trolls? :o Of course this was one of the charms of MERP. A friend of mine has noted that it worked well for The Hobbit-level characters. Myself I mostly like the background bits (with all those silly quirks, like the Scots and the Russians, and the Haradrim who don't use armor :rolleyes: ). That it was the first time I discovered something like that in an RPG probably had something to do with it.
I do agree on MERP vs. PJ. I can't imagine the latter having any chance against Rohirrim at all, even with 10 to 1 odds (wich they don't have...). Of course I've got all kinds of problems with PJ - I won't mess up this thread with them, it deserves better! :)

[vgunn]

Originally posted by The Ent
Silvan elves are probably the only Elven race that shouldn't be treated as superhuman...they're the most "standard elf"-like Tolkien Elves. Probably quicker and more agile than Men, and with the "standard Elf abilities" but no way as good as Sinda; in The Hobbit especially they don't seem much better than Dwarves and Men.

Yes, I agree. I put them on the same level as a dwarf. Also the number of kills between Gimli and Legolas in LOTR is comparable. The High Men are right (1 point) behind them, and the main reason for this is Age. High Men would probably exceed eventually, but are cut short by their lifespan.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by The Ent
*SNIP*

Remember too the game is only a set of guidelines. If you find something objectionable, then change it to suit your views on the subject.

You could also adjust by Age (High in the 1st, Middle in the 2nd, and Low by the 3rd). This would show the decreasing strength of the bloodline. But for game purposes it over-complicates it. The final product could have it listed as an optional rule.

[The Ent]

Just got an idea on the Dunland Problem!

You've got, basically, three varieties of "western Men" (except the Woses, but I read somewhere that they may be as close to the Hobbits as to Men):

1. Those Edain who went West and became Numenorians
2. The Edain who remained in Middle-Earth, but retained their old Edain culture, e.g. the Northmen
3. You could count the Dunlendings/descendants of the Haleth people as "lesser Edain" that did not really retain their culture and mixed with others (probably). That'd put them somewhere between true Edain and Easterlings/Haradrim.

Just a thought, and I'm a bit rusty on Tolkien...I thought that the prospective Numenorians/Edain/Haleth split was based on the 3 1st Age Houses, but I think I'm wrong :o

-the Ent: Captain Oblivious, Master of the Obvious :o

EDIT: to vgunn: your last post made this post rather redundant. Cool idea btw! :o :)

[vgunn]

http://thetolkienwiki.info/mathom/gate7ole_sketch.jpg

[vgunn]

That link does a very good job of breaking down the Race of Men.

[The Ent]

Originally posted by vgunn
That link does a very good job of breaking down the Race of Men.

So it did! Thanks a lot vgunn! :)
It's the best canon treatment of this I've ever seen!

Cool that they made the Hillmen of Rhudaur unrelated to the Dunlendings btw.

[vgunn]

Josh was kind enough to clean up the Size Modifier issue - it would mean that the Dragon (Very Large) gets -3/+3 against Hobbits (Small), -2/+2 against Men (Normal), and -1/+1 against Trolls (Large) ( and vice-versa).

[damiller]

Originally posted by vgunn
Remember too the game is only a set of guidelines. If you find something objectionable, then change it to suit your views on the subject.

Just because that needed to be said again. (AND it is true of any RPG!! I just wish they (other RPG designers) knew that!)

d :D

[NPC Balbinus]

Originally posted by vgunn
As far as the Will issue, yes it would appear that the Hobbits get short-changed. However, they will have a racial bonus on Tests of Will vs. Corruption. I have not added this yet, but is coming soon.

Ah, fair enough then :-)

[A. Asohan]

Vgunn
Printed out your rules and had a read last night. Good stuff, and I can’t wait for more updates. Get back to work, you :)

For my own, selfish reasons though, I wish that you’d completed it before posting the game on your website. I would hate for you to receive a cease and desist letter from Tolkien Enterprise, then having to stop from giving us the complete game. I hope that doesn’t happen.

Since you’re accepting feedback and honest (and I hope positive) criticism, I have some minor (really minor) quibbles:

1) I do believe that it’s Middle-earth, and not Middle-Earth (the “e” in earth is lower-case). I may be wrong (I don’t have any of the books with me right now to check), but you may want to confirm it and do a search-and-replace.

2) You might want to consider retaining Tolkien’s British English spelling – Valour instead of Valor, Honour instead of Honor. If I’m not mistaken, Tolkien himself was very particular about this, and even the US publishers of his works through the years have retained the British spelling.
(Hey, I did say they were minor quibbles.)

3) I agree with one of the previous posters about dropping some of the complexity, especially WRT to traits like Burden, but I do appreciate the fact that GMs who want a “lighter” version may just drop them. I admit this could be the narrative-RPGer in me talking ….

BTW, the max-XPs-per-session for the more superior races was a stroke of genius. I’m definitely going to steal that idea from your game, even if I do not, in the end, use your ruleset.

I can’t wait to find out more about your magic system – definitely the trickiest part of conducting a faithful-to-the-source Middle-earth campaign.

I was also in the process of creating my own set of rules for Middle-earth roleplaying, but discarded it halfway after I got my copy of Hero Wars. You’d be horrified to know that many of my ideas for that particular game were sparked by some of your very insightful Middle-earth posts here in RPGnet :)

If some of my research can be helpful to you in writing up your rules, I would be more than pleased to PM my Word files to you. Heck, I’ll be honest – I would be *flattered* if you would have a look. I consider you the foremost Middle-earth expert here at RPGnet, and if my own rules can help you frame your ideas (I did use a lot of examples from the books, so it might save you some time if nothing else), it would be only fair, since your ideas helped me a lot in the past when I was writing up my own rules.

Just give the word and I’ll send them to you.

Cheers.

Asohan

[vgunn]

Originally posted by A. Asohan
Vgunn
Printed out your rules and had a read last night. Good stuff, and I can’t wait for more updates. Get back to work, you :)

For my own, selfish reasons though, I wish that you’d completed it before posting the game on your website. I would hate for you to receive a cease and desist letter from Tolkien Enterprise, then having to stop from giving us the complete game. I hope that doesn’t happen.

Since you’re accepting feedback and honest (and I hope positive) criticism, I have some minor (really minor) quibbles:

1) I do believe that it’s Middle-earth, and not Middle-Earth (the “e” in earth is lower-case). I may be wrong (I don’t have any of the books with me right now to check), but you may want to confirm it and do a search-and-replace.

2) You might want to consider retaining Tolkien’s British English spelling – Valour instead of Valor, Honour instead of Honor. If I’m not mistaken, Tolkien himself was very particular about this, and even the US publishers of his works through the years have retained the British spelling.
(Hey, I did say they were minor quibbles.)

3) I agree with one of the previous posters about dropping some of the complexity, especially WRT to traits like Burden, but I do appreciate the fact that GMs who want a “lighter” version may just drop them. I admit this could be the narrative-RPGer in me talking ….

BTW, the max-XPs-per-session for the more superior races was a stroke of genius. I’m definitely going to steal that idea from your game, even if I do not, in the end, use your ruleset.

I can’t wait to find out more about your magic system – definitely the trickiest part of conducting a faithful-to-the-source Middle-earth campaign.

I was also in the process of creating my own set of rules for Middle-earth roleplaying, but discarded it halfway after I got my copy of Hero Wars. You’d be horrified to know that many of my ideas for that particular game were sparked by some of your very insightful Middle-earth posts here in RPGnet :)

If some of my research can be helpful to you in writing up your rules, I would be more than pleased to PM my Word files to you. Heck, I’ll be honest – I would be *flattered* if you would have a look. I consider you the foremost Middle-earth expert here at RPGnet, and if my own rules can help you frame your ideas (I did use a lot of examples from the books, so it might save you some time if nothing else), it would be only fair, since your ideas helped me a lot in the past when I was writing up my own rules.

Just give the word and I’ll send them to you.

Cheers.

Asohan

AA,

Thanks for the post.

I will keep that in mind, though I am not overly concerned about it. There are literally dozens upon dozen of unofficial ME rpg sites out there (D20 conversions, GURPS, Alternity, Pendragon, the list goes on and on) and countless other general sites that have been around for a long time. Not saying that TE will not come after me, but I will take my chances.

Besides if that does occur, I will finish it regardless and email privately to those who wish it. So you will be in luck!

1. Yep, noticed that - I will check and make it official!

2. Another yes, final version will retain British spellings.

3. Right, I will definately rewrite to make clearer. It is something however if a GM does not wish they can disgard without losing much from the game. Or even simplify if need be. They will remain for those you want a bit more and because I spent a lot of time testing it to see if it scaled right (and it hits close to the mark, especially pace).

Thanks on the XP remark, I really feel it works well.

Really, HeroQuest now right. I have seen a number of recent threads regarding the conversion over to it. Glad you respect some of the posts I have made, I try my best to stay true to Tolkien's spirit (though rightfully not everyone shares these opinions).

Heck yes, PM the stuff over to me - I will certainly take a look!

Again, Thanks for the post. Really helps build confidence and momentum.

[Niall]

Originally posted by A. Asohan

BTW, the max-XPs-per-session for the more superior races was a stroke of genius. I’m definitely going to steal that idea from your game, even if I do not, in the end, use your ruleset.


I agree that this is a truly excellent idea. After all, a millenia old elf will not proftit in the same way from an adventure as a much younger man.

What I don't get at the moment (probably because the rules are not yet finished) is how men and hobbits can benefit from this advantage, when advancement is much more expensive for them than for the Eldar. Will there be other uses for experience beisdes raising Qualities and Skills?

[vgunn]

Niall,

Quicker advancement for Hobbits and Men is key because of lifespan. Certainly higher abilities is an advantage, this will bridge the gap somewhat at least intially. Another XP purchase is in Strengths - which is major benefit that allows the Strengths at character creation to become even stronger (i.e. increasing the level of Hard to Kill).

[Deathlok]

Originally posted by Niall
What I don't get at the moment (probably because the rules are not yet finished) is how men and hobbits can benefit from this advantage, when advancement is much more expensive for them than for the Eldar. Will there be other uses for experience beisdes raising Qualities and Skills?

You also have to remember that the higher races will generally have higher skills to start with. A Sylvan Elf who wants to buy up has Volley skill will have to wait 5-6 sessions until he has 21-27 experience points. A Hobbit wanting another point of Volley will likely only have to wait 2-3 sessions to get the 12-18 points necessary.

At least, that's the idea. When I tried to come up with a single experience table for all the races to use, you either had Hobbits maxing out skills after 3 sessions or Elves waiting a year to buy another point of Counsel.

[Melan]

Originally posted by Jesse_Lowe
At first, hasty glance, the thread title was "*Hitler* Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-Earth" which, I tell you, sparked some interesting campaign ideas.
Ah, I'm not the only one. :D

[vgunn]

Yeah, Heil Sauron just doesn't hit that same note.:)

[ADOC]

Originally posted by vgunn
Zealot,

Yep, got it already and it is used in some of the fonts.

Thanks for the link.

But you to embed the font to the pdf, so others can see. Its coming up as a plain text!

[vgunn]

Originally posted by ADOC
But you to embed the font to the pdf, so others can see. Its coming up as a plain text!

Okay, will attempt that with the next upload. It should have an LOTR font for the Intro to the website and for the header and footer on the pdf. The text of the document is a font similar to that found in Decipher's Core book.

Now I know why Jeph made the comment earlier.

Look for a 2-3 page upload later this weekend. I hope!

[vgunn]

Page 14 is complete and I am verifying subject material to see that it fits before uploading to the site. Pages 15-16 should be finished tomorrow.

[Fred]

Hi, Vgunn,

I was wondering: do you really need a Duel skill? Why not use just Strike and Defend and assign damage to Fortitude? Also, what is the difference between Counsel and Diplomacy? And what does Tending and Stunting do? I believed the former was some kind of medical skill, but then I saw Aid; and the latter sounds like acrobatics.

In the Gandalf example, you list pine cone as material, but I a doubt. Does that mean the spell can only be used with pine cones? If any small, flamable object can be infused with the magical fire, wouldn't it be more logical to list that as the material?

Tchau!

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Fred
Hi, Vgunn,

I was wondering: do you really need a Duel skill? Why not use just Strike and Defend and assign damage to Fortitude? Also, what is the difference between Counsel and Diplomacy? And what does Tending and Stunting do? I believed the former was some kind of medical skill, but then I saw Aid; and the latter sounds like acrobatics.

In the Gandalf example, you list pine cone as material, but I a doubt. Does that mean the spell can only be used with pine cones? If any small, flamable object can be infused with the magical fire, wouldn't it be more logical to list that as the material?

Tchau!

Fred,

Here is how I broke it down using more basic (archaic words).

Armed Combat - Offensive= Strike
Armed Combat - Defensive = Defend
Ranged Combat - = Volley
Unarmed Combat = Duel

I felt like the actions differed to greatly to combine Duel and Strike, plus I wanted something to indicate non-lethal combat (i.e. brawling). My thinking was that someone could be a great fistacuffs type, but not have a clue in actual weapon fighting. For Defend, I wanted something to indicate block, parry, dodge and so on.

But you do have me thinking that maybe the Defend Skill could actually encompass Duel and thus replace that without changing the mechanics of weaponed combat (non-lethal combat is Grace/Might + Duel if changed it would be Grace/Might + Defend).

Stunting is that acrobatics, balance, athletics, tumbling, and the like. I just don't like the word acrobatics for the setting. Seemed to modern for me. Though I am not real keen on Stunting either.

Tending - this one will stay and here is the reason. I need a skill that can take Farming, Animal Husbandry, and Vintner. One does not farm a vinyard, they tend it. However, they could tend to crops or animals so thus Tending.

Yes, Diplomacy and Counsel do appear close, in fact I had it as one to begin with but changed because it seemed too broad.

The design thinking was that Diplomacy was a courtisan type skill that would cover emissary, statecraft, stewardship or lordship, negotiations and courtly affairs.

Counsel is more like advise, someone who was skilled in design, intent, schemes, and planning. Thinking Gandalf was high in Counsel, more so than Diplomacy.

So the decision was to split the skills, I'm still questioning it.

As far as Colour-Flame - the example was specific to that exact situation. You are right, had he been trapped in a place with a similar material he would have used it instead. Now one thing to remember he doesn't use a spellbook like the standard DnD magic-users. His action was instantaneous thought to effect - the pine cones were his only choice. But for general gameplay I will list Colour-Flame in a section with sample Enchantments with (as you indicated) any small, flamable object.

Hope this helps!

[Niall]

Originally posted by vgunn

The design thinking was that Diplomacy was a courtisan type skill that would cover emissary, statecraft, stewardship or lordship, negotiations and courtly affairs.


I'm not a native speaker, but I think you mean a "courtier type skill", as the skills of a courtisan concern a highly interesting subject, but one that does not get much attention in the works of Tolkien. ;)

I thought the same thing, by the way, that these skills are pretty close and might be compared.

BTW my German character sheet is pretty much finished. I couldn't use the original, as the file had some quirks my Word-skills could not overcome.

As translating the skill names is not as easy as one might think, and because I thought that it fit the setting, I named the skills after the profession that uses them, i.e. Diplomat for Diplomacy, Ranger for Wilderness, Farmer for Tending...

[Almafeta]

Originally posted by Jesse_Lowe
At first, hasty glance, the thread title was "*Hitler* Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-Earth" which, I tell you, sparked some interesting campaign ideas.

Ein Volk, Ein Klang, Ein Führer!

[Fred]

Originally posted by vgunn

Unarmed Combat = Duel

Oh, ok. I thought duel also covered armed combat, becaus eof the way you describe it in teh rules. Maybe a change of name, or a rewording that sentence, would avoid confusion. Maybe something like fistcuffs.


My thinking was that someone could be a great fistacuffs type, but not have a clue in actual weapon fighting.

Now that you mention it, I remembered thinking exact the same thing when I read your rules the first time.

But you do have me thinking that maybe the Defend Skill could actually encompass Duel and thus replace that without changing the mechanics of weaponed combat (non-lethal combat is Grace/Might + Duel if changed it would be Grace/Might + Defend).

I don't think that you need to change it. Keep Duel the way it is, but I would suggest allowing a character to use the higher of Strike or Defend to defend in armed combat. The same thing for unarmed combat (using Duel or Defend). After all, weapons and martial art training teach you how to defend.


Counsel is more like advise, someone who was skilled in design, intent, schemes, and planning. Thinking Gandalf was high in Counsel, more so than Diplomacy.

So Counsel would be a kind of high brow Smooth Talking? In other words, it could be used to convince important figures to follow a certain course of action?

Hope this helps!

It sure does! :)

Tchau!

[Deathlok]

Originally posted by Fred
I don't think that you need to change it. Keep Duel the way it is, but I would suggest allowing a character to use the higher of Strike or Defend to defend in armed combat. The same thing for unarmed combat (using Duel or Defend). After all, weapons and martial art training teach you how to defend.


I don't know that this is a good idea, as it makes Strike a strictly better skill than defend in most cases. Defend only allows one to defend. Strike allows one to both attack and defend. Which one would I rather buy for my character?

[Fred]

Originally posted by Deathlok
I don't know that this is a good idea, as it makes Strike a strictly better skill than defend in most cases. Defend only allows one to defend. Strike allows one to both attack and defend. Which one would I rather buy for my character?

Sure, you can buy up your Strike skill to become better than Turin Turambar, but it will do nothing to prevent that lowly orc over there from transforming you into a pin cushion with his arrows. :)

Tchau!

[Deathlok]

Originally posted by Fred
Sure, you can buy up your Strike skill to become better than Turin Turambar, but it will do nothing to prevent that lowly orc over there from transforming you into a pin cushion with his arrows. :)

Tchau!

You mean those same martial schools that teach you how to parry don't teach you how to dodge?

...and if everyone's supposed to be encouraged to buy both Strike and Defend, why bother allowing someone to use Strike in place of Defend in a single situation?

The thought behind the idea was a good one, but I think the implementation is too messy and counter-intuitive to be worth it.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Deathlok
You mean those same martial schools that teach you how to parry don't teach you how to dodge?

Correct. I've practiced both fencing and kendo and not once did I have a lesson on avoiding arrows. :) I understand that fighting skills involve moves to not only block, but also avoid blows. However, most RPG rules system standardize the fact that those skills will only allow you to defend against the same attacks they teach you. Some crossover is possible, of course, like defending from a punch with a sword (since cinematic martial artists who can parry arrows bare-handed are not a fixture of the Tolkien universe, I think we can ignore them here).

...and if everyone's supposed to be encouraged to buy both Strike and Defend, why bother allowing someone to use Strike in place of Defend in a single situation?

Because I may want to reflect the fact that my character is extremely competent with a sword, both offensive and defensively, but not as good otherwise.

The thought behind the idea was a good one, but I think the implementation is too messy and counter-intuitive to be worth it.

I disagree. The implementation is really simple and has been used successfully in other RPGs for years now. And wouldn't it be more counter-intuitive to have a character who was really competent striking with a sword, but no better than Bilbo when it came to defend himself with it?

Tchau!

[vgunn]

Fred,

I know what you are saying, there are many games which just lump all into Armed Combat. I just felt I wanted the split, one of the reasons is because combat is very deadly in Hither Lands. It really helps out the Hobbits, who can use the extra defensive protection.

In Buffy - to me, they overcomplicate the defensive action. In combat Parry for instance is used with Dex + Kung Fu or Dex + Getting Medieval. The same for Dodge, except it can be used in combat also with Dex +Acrobatics. Now I understand that the Buffyverse is dealing with a number of different forms of combat (modern to medieval) so its got to be more diverse. But in the case of ME it is more set to the era.

Defend, as one gets higher levels the skill broadens. At 1, the character only knows the basic moves trained. However, say at level 7 they have become skilled in defensive moves with a sword and also counter-measures against missile attacks.

There will be also Battle-Feats to compliment both the Strike and Defend skills.

Again, its a guideline. You could easily run a game with or without it and not feel any loss. No one, you I and everyone else, knows that it cannot please all the folks out there. Hopefully its rules-friendly enough to be tweaked to one's liking withiout much discomfort.

Remember too that this is version 1. So folks like you and Josh can really impact the outcome by playtesting and sending feedback and opinions. Try it out with the Defend skill as is at first, after a few sessions report back with conclusions. This is what makes the Hither Lands a fun opportunity to contribute.

Take Care,

Val

[vgunn]

Page 14 is finished and up on the site (actually some re-arranging its now page 13).

Minor editing (some grammatical errors cleaned up; proper British spelling; updated Colour-Flame to include alt. material).

[Balbinus]

I was very surprised to see Duel meant brawling, I don't think that's at all obvious from the name. I think I'd suggest changing that one as the skill name suggests formal duels rather than unarmed combat.

[vgunn]

Balbinus,

I understand the confusion, looking for a word to replace.

[Balbinus]

Originally posted by vgunn
Balbinus,

I understand the confusion, looking for a word to replace.

Brawling usually works, but it is hard to picture Aragorn brawling I grant.

Pugilism may be too Victorian.

Brawling is my best shot, but I welcome better.

[Fred]

Originally posted by vgunn
I know what you are saying, there are many games which just lump all into Armed Combat. I just felt I wanted the split, one of the reasons is because combat is very deadly in Hither Lands. It really helps out the Hobbits, who can use the extra defensive protection.

Vgunn,

I don't think you understood me. I'm not advocating the elimination of the Defend skill. I'm just saying that you could allow a character to choose between using Strike/Duel and Defend, in the appropriate defense actions, whichever is higher. Defend would still be the generic (and broad) defense skill. The hobbits are safe. :)

Tchau!

[vgunn]

Fred,

Gotcha! Will playtest as is, but I will also do some stuff with that as an option.

[vgunn]

* Update

Page 15 - Strengths, the layout has begun. Please note it is still not complete and the point values are subject to change.

Page 16 - Of Peoples section is completed as well as the information for the Elves.

Duel changed to Pummel for now.

More to come!

[Niall]

I love watching this game grow!

Just a couple of thoughts: It's good to hear that the most compelling characters are the small ones. I agree. However I think the rules should make playing a hobbit not only rewarding from a strictly roleplaying point, but also make playing a hobbit fun ruleswise. As it seems now, the only advantage hobbits get is a high valour and a better learning curve and possibly a better resistance against corruption. In every other aspect they are weaker than every other race. So even if you play a hobbit for character reasons, you'll have to work hard to keep him alive. That doesn't fit well with the books, where hobbits can get away with a lot. Just think of Bilbo stealing the troll's purse or Pippin ... being Pippin. As I've said before, I am probably judging the unfinished rules harshly.


The other thing is something (and also the first thing so far) I really don't like about your rules. It's just a matter of personal taste so please don't feel offended.

I really liked the short and concise skill list. I think that's a good way to go for quick character generation and quick play. Perfectly in keeping with your design philosophy. Why leave this path with the Strengths then? Judging from the number of entries between "ACC" and "ATT" there will be lots of Strengths and Weaknesses in the end. I wonder why. I've had a time myself, when I thought that the GURPS system of doing ads/disads was a great way to create diverse characters and promote good roleplaying. Well, I've changed my mind. What looks good in theory, doesn't always do so in practice. I've had much more success with my own universal system using just a short list of 7 to 10 setting specific advantages/disadvantages for each world. It was perfectly viable to have a character without any - you can still play an alcoholic or arrogant snob, you just don't get any points for it.

My personal preference would be to keep the Strength/Weakness list very short and to the point. Couldn't "Accuracy" be reflected by one more point in Volley? "Agile" by one in Defense?

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Niall
I love watching this game grow!In every other aspect they are weaker than every other race. So even if you play a hobbit for character reasons, you'll have to work hard to keep him alive. That doesn't fit well with the books, where hobbits can get away with a lot.
I really liked the short and concise skill list. I think that's a good way to go for quick character generation and quick play. Perfectly in keeping with your design philosophy. Why leave this path with the Strengths then? you can still play an alcoholic or arrogant snob, you just don't get any points for it.

My personal preference would be to keep the Strength/Weakness list very short and to the point. Couldn't "Accuracy" be reflected by one more point in Volley? "Agile" by one in Defense?

Niall,

Thanks for the comments.

Really I see it the exact opposite as you I guess, had it not been for a Hobbit's Valour, Luck, and Will - they would have failed. They are much weaker than the other races in terms of actually abilities, it is only these (very important mind you) assets that they survive and succeed in their adventures.

As far as Strengths and Weaknesses - yes the list is more comprehensive. This not mean it is the final result. I'd rather give out most to all the merits and flaws to see how they playtest. Then remove as we find unnecessary, you have the chance to contribute here!

Yes things like Accurate and so on can be reflected in skills or Qualities - and we may end up with that.

A definate opinion is to turn Strengths into the Inherent racial abilities - points could be spent on those Strengths which have multiple levels.

Again, I'd rather throw it all out there and the "trim the fat" if you know what I mean.

Val

[vgunn]

Niall,

Have already trimmed a bit - on the next upload. Agile will be gone.

Also changed the "free levels in Enchantments for Dwarves and Elves" to an optional rule.

[vgunn]

Page 17 is half-complete, with the Dwarves being detailed. It is uploaded to the site for viewing.

Some examples added to Protection (Armour).

I have embedded the fonts, so they should be seen in proper format.

If anyone can report back on this, it would be greatly appreciated (you should not see a basic Times New Roman font).

[vgunn]

Page 18 is complete (only missing a bit of info below the table for dwarves).

A more lengthy list of Strengths and Weakness has also been added, however this is not finished.

Page 19 will complete the sections for Men and Hobbits and will be done soon.

[vgunn]

Well page 19 ran a bit long (covering High Men and the bulk of the information on Middle Men) so page 20 will cover Low Men and part of the Hobbit section. Page 21 should complete the segment on the races of Hither Lands.

[vgunn]

The section on Men is nearly complete. Final touches need to be finished on them and the Dwarves. The Hobbits section will be completed soon.

[vgunn]

Yet another update.

The section on the races is complete.

Next will be the detailing of Strengths and Weaknesses.

On the to-do list:

A re-tool the Lot Quality
Add the Battle-Feats
Put in size modifiers
Other ways to be injured or killed - such as falling, poison and fire.
List of Enchantments by craft.
Examples of combat and other actions
Legal notice and copyright information
Complete rundown of Character Creation
Sample character concepts
Second generation character sheet
Update of the website - legal notices, forums and other

The game is progressing very well to this point and I hope that most who have seen it will give it a test drive.

[Cith]

I love what you have so far - it really does look and feel middle-earthy.

[ADOC]

I'm watching the progress with a keen eye vgunn. It looks like its going to end up being fantastic. Great job so far.

Now get back to work!

[Boba Fett]

Just my quick 2 cents:

POSITIVE:
The layout is beautiful, the font is just right for the setting, and your ideas are interesting; I have to look more carefully at the mechanics before saying much more.

NEGATIVE:
Some grammar that needs correction.


That was not a lot of negative remarks! :)

[Neil]

Good thread guys! I have a quick thought (and I'll it post here to cunningly subscribe to the thread).

Could certain inherent racial Weaknesses be bought off? Namely, the ones which are of a result of cultural conditioning and not based on a character's physiology? For example, Arrogance and Proud in Elves or Obsession in Dwarves.

[Niall]

Originally posted by Neil
Good thread guys! I have a quick thought (and I'll it post here to cunningly subscribe to the thread).


You are a trifle too cunning for my tastes, sir. So I shall do the same as you.


I am currently rereading "The Hobbit", and like it - even though it is a children's book - in some ways much more than the LotR. I am feeling even more strongly now that you are doing the hobbits a slight injustice in your game. As it is, hobbits start out slightly retarded, they are inferior in every quality and skill. I completely agree that a hobbit will be weaker and less wise than an elf or a dwarf. However, why can't he be as nimble or even more so? Or have higher Wits? Bilbo didn't knock out dozens of spiders with thrown rocks by being valorous, but because he was very skillfull at throwing - something most hobbits seem to be. He also saw things much better than the dwarves, and indeed seemed to have ideas they could not come up with.

Now, surely the "village-idiot hobbit" who is amply portrayed in the "On Hobbits" part in the extended version of the FotR would have low stats in about anything. But a RPG is not about him, just as it is not about the fat, short-sighted Dunedain who always steps into his own traps.

[ADOC]

Niall,

I think the levels are right on the money. Bilbo is just one little lucky bastard in my opinion. Plus - I don't see any hobbit matching up with the likes of a Durin or similar Dwarven lord in any category.

[Neil]

Originally posted by Niall
You are a trifle too cunning for my tastes, sir. So I shall do the same as you.

Hee, I am not sure wheteher or not I ought to be offended or flattered by that.

As for your concerns about Hobbits, I have kind of thought along the same lines as yourself. Vgunn does consider thoughts like these, though, so I let's see what he comes back with in response. He is writing it after all and maybe this might be better being looked at after some playtesting. I have mentioned concerns about Hobbits before too elsewhere.

[vgunn]

Niall,

A few things to keep in mind. First the stats indicate that a 3 is average, so Hobbits can go well above that. A 6 in a category will make someone very powerful. Hobbits live longer than low or middle men, so it is likely that the men would never reach full potential in stats. Hobbits can also advance rather quickly.

But more than that the reasons are quite specific. Tolkien re-defines the qualities of heroism in both the Hobbit and LOTR. He chooses the Hobbits, simple-minded folk of short stature and comfort-based tendencies to be his heroes. There are other characters in the books – men, wizards, elves and dwarves – but the hobbits narrate the tale and perform the crucial task. The Hobbits are just as brave and courageous as the other characters and their actions produce significant results in the course of history. By overcoming what they lack in abilities and skills, they show their bravery in doing their duty, in taking their stand against the evil that confronts their age. Tolkien is saying that it’s not the wise, strong and powerful that determine history and heroism but the courage of the smaller person, the ordinary guy - the hobbits.

Taking a look at the sample list below, think about the abilities of these to one another. T compare just a few of the greatest figures in each of the races:

Elves –

Finwë, wisest of all the children of the world.

Feanor his skill in crafts were unsurpassed by any of the Children of Iluvatar, he created the Silmarils and the Palantiri. His spirit was so great that it his body burned to ashes upon leaving it.

Fingolfin fought with Melkor, and managed to injure him 7 times before being slain.

Ecthelion possibly the greatest Elf warrior to live, he died while slaying Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs.

Glorfindel the killed a Balrog, he stayed to the last to defend Gondolin. He was then reborn and confronted the Nazgul.

Dwarves –

Telchar a renowned craftsman of Nogrod. He forged:
- "Angrist", the sword which Beren used to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown;
- "Narsil", the Sword of Elendil and later Aragorn, the sword that cut the One from Sauron's finger.
- the "Dragon-helm" of Dór-lomin, which Turin wore to battle.

Durin I, the Deathless the Eldest of the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves and the father of "Durin's folk" . He founded Khazad-dum (Moria), which is perhaps the most renowned dwarven dwelling.

Dáin II Ironfoot slew Azog in the Battle of Azanulbizar (Moria) and thus avenged Thrór's death. Warns Thráin not to enter Moria, because Durin's bane still awaits them. His kingdom in the Iron Hills was assaulted by Sauron's forces during the War of the Ring. The Dwarves were victorious, but Dáin was slain.

Thráin II organized an enormous host of dwarves, not only of Durin's House but of other houses as well, to avenge the death of his father and rid the Misty Mountains of orcs. He made a home in exile in the Ered Luin. Died in the pits of Dol Guldur.

Azaghal the Lord of Belegost. Wounded Glaurung at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, but was also killed by him.

Men –

Hurin went up against Morgoth and did not tell where Goldolin was. Killed 70 trolls in one battle.

Turin killed the father of all dragons.

Beren went into angband twice and took the Silmaril out of Morgoth’s crown.

Elendil stood toe to toe against Morgoth.

Tuor rose to become a great captain of the Gondolindrim on merit, and provided some much needed leadership to the survivors of the great city after Turgon's death. He alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor.

Hobbits –

Frodo Baggins the Ring bearer, destroys the One Ring, bringing about hte ultimate defeat of Sauron. Frodo leaves to Valinor with Bilbo and Gandalf at the end of his quest.

Tobold Hornblower of Longbottom in the Southfarthing first grew the true pipe-weed in his gardens in the days of Isengrim the Second.

Bilbo Baggins saves the Dwarves from Trolls and Spiders finds the One Ring.

The Fallohide Brothers of Marcho and Blanco crossed the Brandywine River and founded the Shire.

Merry Brandybuck helps Eowyn slay the Witch-King.

As you can see, the stats for Hobbits would not match up well against the other races, but their deeds are mighty.

Again I think Tolkien did this by design.

“They [Hobbits] are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man - though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'.
- #131

Tolkien is indicating that despite the fact that the Hobbits do not possess the physical abilities of Men, they are capable (at times) of performing the greatest of deeds. The Qualities and Skills may be lower, but Hobbits have something else make up for it.

“…these little people [Hobbits] seemed of very little importance. But in the days of Bilbo, and of Frodo his heir, they suddenly became, by no wish of their own, both important and renowned, and troubled the counsels of the Wise and the Great.”
- LOTR

Hobbits are not mentioned as being either Wise (Wits) or Great (Might/Wisdom). In fact they have no comparable heroes to the other races.

“... [Hobbits] wandering and poor folk, forgetful of their arts, living a precarious life absorbed in the search of food, and fearful of being seen."
- UT

Not a people that can be compared to Dwarves or Elves in terms of prowess.

"Their height is variable, ranging between two and four feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days were taller."
- FOTR

Hobbits were once a hardier race and are, in fact “dwindling” by the time Bilbo comes around.

“My people came out of the North long ago,’ said Théoden. ‘But I will not deceive you: we know no tales about hobbits. All that is said among us is that far away, over many hills and rivers, live the halfling folk that dwell in holes in sand-dunes. But there are no legends of their deeds. for it is said that they do little, and avoid the sight of men, being able to vanish in a twinkling: and they can change their voices to resemble the piping of birds. But it seems that more could be said.’
‘It could indeed, lord,’ said Merry.”
- TT

Another statement pointing to the fact that origins of Hobbits are not known to men and are not held in high regard.

Final point - Try not to get caught up in the numbers. If you can get a Hobbit to a 6 in any Quality or Skill, you will find that they are more than capable of doing the job. After playtesting, if the numbers need to be adjusted then it will be done.

Sorry for the long post. Hope you understand where I am coming from.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Boba Fett
Just my quick 2 cents:

NEGATIVE:
Some grammar that needs correction.


That was not a lot of negative remarks! :)

Boba Fett,

Feel free to PM or email me, so that I can get grammer mistakes corrected.

Same for any others who notice any issues. I'm not really focused on that aspect in this version, will do a complete edit after it is done.

[vgunn]

Will begin next week on completing the Strengths and Weakness section.

[vgunn]

Other projects have stepped in the way a bit, but I hope to have another update coming this week. Hope all can be patient as I am dedicated to seeing Hither Lands become a complete game!

[Denys]

Originally posted by vgunn
Other projects have stepped in the way a bit, but I hope to have another update coming this week. Hope all can be patient as I am dedicating to seeing Hither Lands a complete game!

I keep watching... and waiting. Super stuff so far...

- Ian

[vgunn]

Ian,

Thanks for the compliment!

Hope to have an update soon.

[ADOC]

Am I right in assuming the quickstart rules will have samples of Middle-earth creatures?

How is Threat measured? Guessing it will like bite 3, claw 2, talon 4 and so on. Is this right?

That will be very interesting to see.

I'm looking forward to the update.

[vgunn]

Adoc,

Yes there will be a large number of minions in the quickstart rules which will be described in detail.

Yes, each non-humanoid creature will have a Threat rating for the type of Strike they make. This will be tiered making the bite of a Warg more dangerous than that of an ordinary wolf. The range will be from 0-6, with unique creatures (dragons) capable of taking this up to 12.

They too will have some Battle-Feats as well. Along with Villain points (just the same as Valour) for some.

[vgunn]

Well there is finally an update to the PDF.

Battle-Feats have been completed. These are combat maneuvers similar to those found in Buffy RPG and other cinematic/heroic type games. It offers the ability to perform actions like those seen in the LOTR films. One thing to keep in mind is that they are not required to run the game. If one wanted to keep it real and gritty, simply disregard these moves (even Strengths and Weaknesses if you so desired).

BTW - My original thought was to have the maximum bonus of a move set to +3, so the current numbers (some of which go to +6) may be modified through playtesting.

Size Modifiers have been introduced.

The Lot Quality mechanic has been tweaked to better represent luck in the game.

Still working on Strengths and Weaknesses. I hope to have them completed (with a bit of luck) by the end of the weekend.

Forums have been added to the website, though still very early stages.

Thanks for all the continued support and comments!

[vgunn]

A quick update

The Strengths and Weaknesses section is nearly complete and should be uploaded to the site by Tuesday night.

This leaves us with:

Other ways to be injured or killed - such as falling, poison and fire.
List of Enchantments by craft.
Examples of combat and other actions
Legal notice and copyright information
Complete rundown of Character Creation
Sample character concepts
Second generation character sheet
Update of the website - legal notices, forums and other

Progress is being made and every day brings it closer to completion.

I hope to see more folks join the forums and will also playtest the game using the quickstart rules.

[vgunn]

- Update -

The Strengths and Weaknesses (over six pages worth!) section is complete and uploaded to the website.

The pdf is now a full 27 pages and really can be played without many glaring issues.

[Balbinus]

I have to admit this is becoming very impressive, looking at it afresh (I last looked when it was around 11 pages) I see that pretty much every concern I had has been addressed and that the good stuff has been kept and expanded on. Looking forward to more.

One query, stunting seems an odd skill name. What is that?

Also, any chance of seeing a goblin or orc statted up?

[Edit: Already out of date, stunting has become balance, a far better name.]

[Cam Banks]

I'm thinking Grace does sound better than Nimbleness, by the way. It was stats with -ness on it that made me look at the Decipher LOTR sideways and grunt. I would rather have something be called Agility, Dexterity, or Grace than Nimbleness or Quickness.

Nice work!

The Character sheet PDF has a few problems - lining up the names of traits with their boxes, and in some places Grace is still being used for Nimbleness. Just an FYI.

Cheers,
Cam

[Balbinus]

I also prefer Grace.

To me, an elf is graceful, not nimble.

[Neil]

The grace thing kind of has a thread of it's own on Vgunn's on site forum and the change was a result of arguments against it. I almost agree actually; I do think it suits the descriptions of Elves, but it is confusing to some who think of spiritual grace when they see that word. Also, not everybody is an Elf.

Perhaps Grace might be better being saved as a label for another character Strength of some sort?

As for nimbleness, I think it suits. It's "hobbitish", (yes, OK, I'm in danger of contradicting myself in regard to my Elf comment - as it happens I think that writing the final game from a travelwise Hobbit's perspective might be a nice touch) and less ambiguous than the case against grace. I don't have the hang up of actually running decipher's system (I just added the nice bits as I needed to my heavily tweaked MERP and carried on with gaming) and therefore don't have much of an axe to grind against it as perhaps I might. At the end of the day I think they got some ideas correct, it was the execution that they fell down on (I personally do not like mook rules for one thing).

Nice to see fans of any persuation popping up on here!

[Balbinus]

Originally posted by Neil
Nice to see fans of any persuation popping up on here!

Actually, I'm not even slightly a Tolkien fan. It is entirely to vgunn's credit that he is making such a good job of this that I see the potential where previously I haven't.

Agree with you about mooks by the way.

[Neil]

Originally posted by Balbinus
It is entirely to vgunn's credit that he is making such a good job of this that I see the potential where previously I haven't.


I do so enjoy reading your posts here.:)

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Balbinus
Also, any chance of seeing a goblin or orc statted up?


Balbinus,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. The key now is to get people to start playtesting and iron out the kinks.

Yes, I will stat out most of the creatures and minions that played a part in Middle-earth.

I prefer Grace over Nimbleness - but do understand that it can be confusing to people.

Glad to see the posts are not all mine. :)

[Cam Banks]

I like that Grace at least carries with it not only the physical quality of movement but the way you pull it off. A high Grace score means that you can both nimbly dodge out of the way AND you don't look like an idiot doing it.

Spiritual grace has all of its own connotations which are nicely handled by other attributes and the confusion would be minimal at best.

Cheers,
Cam

[NPC Balbinus]

The Indomitable trait has a rogue reference to Incorruptible, probably from when you were cutting and pasting the identical elements of the text.

What is the difference between Artisan and Tradecraft? Both suggest craftsmanship to me, masonry, carpentry and the like. Is Artisan supposed to be artistic and performance skills, like art, music, poetry and song? If so, I don't think that's the right name.

Is it correct that if I am playing a hobbit I get six points of Strengths free on top of my innate Strengths, and can then buy up to another 12 points of Strengths through taking Weaknesses for a possible total of 18 points of Strengths? That seems a bit odd, could those Weakness points be used to buy qualities or skills instead?

I think Honour (and full marks for using English spelling), Duty and Ardor (Ardour in English spelling here) could use a bit more explanation, I am a bit unsure how to apply them.

The Battle-Feats refer to Strike throughout, even though some clearly should relate to Shoot instead.

Great stuff still, the above represents interest in what you're doing, not criticism.

[vgunn]

Balbinus,

Indomitable mistake caught and changed. Will be correct on next upload. Will check into the Battle-Feats as well.

Will change sp for Ardor to Ardour!

Artisan is for performance skills, while tradecraft covers masonry, carpentry and the like. Open to discussing alternate names.

Yes innate abilities are in addition to points given for Strengths. Most will not spend the 12 points in Weaknesses to boost Strengths (just too much liability). But it is possible. Additional Strengths cannot be purchased after character creation most XP will be spent on uping Qualities and Skills. XP can be spent on Strengths but only on those which can be improved.

Soon you will see a big description on Honour, Duty and Ardor. Will give you a brief synopsis. They act as "spiritual attributes" that define a character and in play can be of great help or hinderance.

Take Samwise Gamgee for example.

Honour - to live for Frodo and the Gaffer, not himself
Duty - Aid and Protect the Fellowship
Ardour - Love and Loyalty for Frodo and the Shire

Sam is attacked in Cirith Ungol. This is a dire situation and one in which these will all come into play. He will receive a bonus of up to +3 for each of these in actions against Shelob. It is possible for him to have a +9 added to Intitiative, Strike and Defend actions. Turning what should have been a clear mis-match into a winable fight. That is not even taking into account the use of Valour.

The bonus (or penalties) usually stand out in moments of greater conflict and are not noticable in all situations.

Cam, post this over that Hither Lands as well. Some do not post here so I'd like to see the discussion over Grace continue (I am on your side).

Its late, so its quite likely there are some grammatical mistakes. Hope it made sense.

[vgunn]

Update,

Working on Combat complications (knockdowns, multiple opponents, and so on). Also Fear section is underway. Will do some editing as well.

Will add a few new Strengths and Weaknesses which were left out.

Forums have been modified (still very much a work in progress).

[The Ent]

The Honour, Duty & Ardo(u)r rules look very cool! :)

[ADOC]

The FEA rules look very good. The game so far gets a big thumbs up from me.

Question, when will we see sample cahracters?

Keep up the good work!

[vgunn]

adoc,

Should have characters done soon. Need to finish up a few other things before I can get to that.

[vgunn]

Update,

Combat complications added. Working on Fear section.

Some editing and name changes.

[Cam Banks]

Originally posted by Balbinus
I also prefer Grace.

To me, an elf is graceful, not nimble.

Yeah, but the guy who's making the loudest call for it to be changed from Grace to Nimbleness is a professional information architect, apparently, so what do I know. :)

Cheers,
Cam

[vgunn]

Cam,

I'm not a fan of Nimbleness. But the problem (and I have to agree) is the misconception of some players relating Grace to something else. I'd really like to find another word.

One thing I am thinking is that maybe its a good poll question to ask.

[corey_s]

finesse?

... mastery?

Hyperdictionary might help:

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/thesaurus

[vgunn]

Corey,

Yep, finesse has been brought up on the Hither Lands forum.

I've used hyperdictionary, thanks for the link.

Maybe an archaic word?

Tith and Gracility are two that come to mind.

[Cith]

I like grace to be honest.

[Tancred]

Poise? Although I guess this is as potentially confusing as Grace...

If the attribute was listed under a 'Physical' subheading or something like that they'd be no confusion surely? Nimbleness just sounds bad.:(

[vgunn]

Tancred,

Might not use it there, but I think you've given me a word to sub in for balance (which was Stunting or acrobatics).

Thanks.:)

[Tancred]

Originally posted by vgunn
Tancred,

Might not use it there, but I think you've given me a word to sub in for balance (which was Stunting or acrobatics).

Thanks.:)

Glad to be of help! :D

Just had another look over your rules, and they're looking really impressive and complete - I was wondering how you'd handled elves being able to walk over snow drifts and the like. Bingo, you've got 'Fleet Footed' to cover it, very nicely done!

[Cam Banks]

Originally posted by Tancred
If the attribute was listed under a 'Physical' subheading or something like that they'd be no confusion surely? Nimbleness just sounds bad.:(

Tolkien equated nimbleness and skill together, making them synonyms for the elven word PHIN (as seen in Findorphin and Orophin and other such names). If the system didn't use "skill" for what most RPGs usually use it for (i.e. all of the things you can do that aren't attributes) it would be a great alternative. Skill implies not only agility but hand/eye coordination and finesse, etc.

Cheers,
Cam

[corey_s]

Tolkien equated nimbleness and skill together, making them synonyms for the elven word PHIN (as seen in Findorphin and Orophin and other such names). If the system didn't use "skill" for what most RPGs usually use it for (i.e. all of the things you can do that aren't attributes) it would be a great alternative. Skill implies not only agility but hand/eye coordination and finesse, etc.

No one likes "mastery", eh?

It seems pretty archaic, and is perfectly synonymous with "skill" as well as nimbleness, grace, etc.

I think mastery sounds alot better than nimbleness, and doesn't have nearly the dual connotations of grace - which isn't archaic anyhow. Of course opinions are opinions, so of course mine should be taken with it's proper grain of salt.

Great work by the way vgunn!

Beers!

[vgunn]

Originally posted by corey_s
No one likes "mastery", eh?

Beers!

Yum beers - make mine a Dortmunder Dark please!

Mastery isn't bad (at least in Hither Lands) but could be confusing as well indicating proficiency in any number of skills. Since Nimbleness is an attribute and not a skill I could see some confusion.

Finesse is better in my mind.

[vgunn]

Originally posted by Cam Banks
Tolkien equated nimbleness and skill together, making them synonyms for the elven word PHIN (as seen in Findorphin and Orophin and other such names). If the system didn't use "skill" for what most RPGs usually use it for (i.e. all of the things you can do that aren't attributes) it would be a great alternative. Skill implies not only agility but hand/eye coordination and finesse, etc.

Cheers,
Cam

I completely agree, but alas its got skills.

Still "Phin" could be something to look at...

[Neil]

Originally posted by Tancred
Poise? Although I guess this is as potentially confusing as Grace...(

Please! Log on to the website!

But Poise! not in English Yorkshire English, 'cause it's a bit...

(sorry!),

a bit gay.

Sometimes the D&D archetypes can really misleading - :p

[corey_s]

But Poise! not in English Yorkshire English, 'cause it's a bit...

(sorry!),

a bit gay.


No need to apologize - everyone knows elves are a little on the pansy side; and after watching Peter Jackson's version of LOTR, one might be inclined to think the same of hobbits as well... thus perhaps Poise isn't too much of a stretch afterall...

(c8=

[Tancred]

Originally posted by Neil
But Poise! not in English Yorkshire English, 'cause it's a bit...

(sorry!),

a bit gay.

Well, I was thinking specifically of Tolkein's elves and they're a bit girly I reckon. :D

Dwarves on the other hand... poise, grace, nimbleness... the words don't go with the beards and the bad fashion sense. 'A bit nippy' perhaps? I can hear them with a Yorkshire accent though. ;)

Perhaps there's an argument for an Unknown Armies-style attribute descriptor? So you get an elf with Agility (graceful) and a dwarf with Agility (pretty spry for a tubby guy)?

[Mac Logo]

Originally posted by Neil
Please! Log on to the website!

But Poise! not in English Yorkshire English, 'cause it's a bit...

(sorry!),

a bit gay.

Sometimes the D&D archetypes can really misleading - :p
Poise - Hah! It makes me think of Billy Elliot. Just not the image one needs for LoTR. Aye, we all know them elves are a buncha fairies...

:)

Graeme

[vgunn]

Too funny. Guess poise is out then!

[vgunn]

Update:

Fear section is complete.

Some minor editing.

Currently working of description of skills.

Next up will be "other ways to die" section and healing.

Renown mechanic also being worked on.

The website is being redone and the new layout will up soon. I am very excited about this as the preview looks fantastic!

PS - Sorry about the delay!

[vgunn]

Forgot to mention.

Version 2 layout is also in the planning stages. This will take the quickstart rules from its basic state and transform into complete game. Some 250+ pages or so when finished!

[Kagemusha]

Originally posted by Neil
Please! Log on to the website!

But Poise! not in English Yorkshire English, 'cause it's a bit...

(sorry!),

a bit gay.

Sometimes the D&D archetypes can really misleading - :p

lol

Not sure if you're familiar with Viz www.viz.co.uk

Just bought the latest edition and found this little entry in Roger's Profanisaurus

nicely poised adj. Of a gentleman, to be prone to jumping puddles. To be good with colours, on the other bus.

Edit: Found another memorable mention advertised on the telly.

www.poise.com

[Neil]

Good old Roger Melly, the Man on the Telly.

Hopefully the first and last time I agree him with though!

I think he wrote F.A.T.A.L., don'tch 'ya know?

[vgunn]

The new website is up and looks fantastic. A special thanks goes out to Andreas Schultz the new webmaster and designer of the the site. Great work!

[ADOC]

Wow!

The you are right, very impressive job.

I am working on getting a feel for the rules and when thats done I plan to post a bit of sample combat. Thinking about a "what if" scenario where the Fellowship all stay to fight the Balrog.

[Fred]

Great site, Vgunn! :)

Tchau!

[vgunn]

Update -

Skills section is complete

Renown section is complete

Further Perils section is complete

Healing section is developed, but is not yet complete (still portion finished will be uploaded)

Lot Quality changed to Luck

Shoot skill (archery and thrown weapons) changed to Fire

Added one level of the Fair Strength to High Men

The pdf is now over 30 pages and the website re-designed. Thanks again to Andreas Schultz the new webmaster.

Hope all will come visit Hither Lands.

[The Ent]

Great site vgunn! I know you know that I know that it's great, but still! :)

[vgunn]

Originally posted by The Ent
Great site vgunn! I know you know that I know that it's great, but still! :)

LOL!

Thanks for the compliments.

[FOV]

Just a passer-by, but I gotta say that the Hither Lands site rocks!

Amazing work - those who have not seen need to check it out. The pdf preview has be salivating.

[corey_s]

In the changes, you mention that the spelling of "Ardour" has been corrected, also that Lot has been changed to Luck - but the character sheet hasn't been updated yet.

I imagine you're probably already well aware of this... but I figured I venture a mention nonetheless -- just in case!

Cheers!


(Looking forward to the next update!)

[corey_s]

Your pdf is beautiful; excellent work.

What software do you use, and just how difficult is it to begin designing a decent looking pdf document from scratch?

Thanks!

[vgunn]

Corey,

I am not sure what software is used. Andreas Schultz is the designer and webmaster. He has done a superb job on it and really motivates me to make the actual game itself the best it can be.

Email or PM him and I'm sure he'd talk to you about the software.

[vgunn]

A new character sheet has been added to the website.

Thanks to Andreas Schultz for all of his help.

[vgunn]

Just letting everyone know that I'm not slacking!

Here is a sneak peek at the upcoming Character Creation section in the next gen pdf:

Guide to Character Creation

Step One: Choose a Concept

The first step in creating the character is the concept. The players need to decide which type of character they desire to play and then allow this decision to guide them through the process of creation. There are no “classes” as such in Hither Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-earth, this allows the design process to be more open and play a significant part in building a unique persona.

The game-master will set the guidelines and limitations for the player with the scope and bounds of the campaign. Depending on the premise, certain restrictions or parameters might apply. Perhaps no characters may be of a certain race or must hail from a certain kingdom or region. From this a player may share his or her vision for this character. A player should strive to make a character that will work to compliment others within the group, though complete cohesiveness will not always come to be.

The player should first work on setting forth a character’s race, background, history and lifepath. This concept will aid in establishing a base foundation for character development. The concept of character creation is a series of broad strokes which serve as an outline that will guide player development and help reduce inconsistencies or impossibilities.

Step Two: Selecting a Race

A character’s race will determine their base number of attribute and skill points along with any innate strengths and weaknesses.

Elves

Elves: Were the first to awaken, they are a graceful and noble race who resembles Men but shine with an inner, celestial glow, giving them an enchanted aura. As a rule, Elves have no facial hair and have less body hair than Men. Though very rare, it is possible to have other hair colors other than black or dark brown, such as blonde or red for example. However, these colors are much more rare than the aforementioned and should be a very distant consideration when selecting such features for your character. Highly resistant to extremes of natural heat and cold, their clothing is usually for decoration, camouflage, or modesty. Generally, Elves are fairer in appearance than their mortal brothers, having finer features and unmarred skin. Their senses are extremely keen, especially their hearing and sight. They are able to see on a clear, star-or-moonlit night, as if in full daylight. Their vision is correspondingly restricted with less light, down to but a few feet in what a man call "pitch black". Most importantly, Elves do not grow old. They are immortal, and their bodies are immune to all bacterial and viral infections. Save a violent or voluntary death, they live forever. Of those that do die, most will themselves away, wearying of a life without obvious purpose or temporal incentive. Elves suffer wounds but heal quickly nor do they show no scars and age gracefully until maturity. Elves do not need sleep. Instead, they receive rest through meditation involving memories, past events they recall with remarkable vividness. Normally they go into this trance-like state for approximately two hours each day, although they can function for many days with little or no relief. In Hither Lands, there are three sub-cultures of Elves.

Noldor

Sub-Culture: The Noldor are called the High Elves or Deep Elves and they love all things made by hand with skill. They prefer to live in halls of stone that have been designed according to their own desires, and to dwell in highlands or hills. They were friends and students of Vala, Aulë the Smith, and they learned much from him concerning crafting and lore. They take delight in languages and scripts, embroidery, drawing and sculpting. The Noldor were the first to discover how to create gems and are master smiths unsurpassed save for their teacher, Aulë.

Appearance: Noldor are of sturdy, yet slender build. They have lightly tanned, fair skin and their hair is deep bronze or raven – with few exceptions. Though their eyes can be of most colors, brown and hazel are predominate. Noldor tend to dress in a courtly, elegant style of noble colors and are fond of wearing jewelry and gemstones of many kinds.

Homelands: Lindon; Lórien; and Rivendell
Height: Male 6’6” – 6’10” Female 5’10” – 6’2”
Weight: Male 200-220 Female 110-130
Age: Formula (Might x Wisdom x 72)
Attribute Points: 24
Skill Points: 36
Valour Points: 8
Merit Points: 12
Flaw Points: Up to 6
Merits: Attuned; Enchantments; Fair (5); Fleet of Foot; Ghost-scorn; Gladden (2); Stalwart (3); Keen Sense (Sight 6 and Hearing 3); Resistance (Cold; Heat; Fire; Pain; Poison); Immunity (Disease and Illness); Swift to Heal; Wander-rest; Woven-words
Flaws: Arrogance; Call of the Sea; Parted (Dwarves); Proud

Sindar

Sub-Culture: They are called the Grey Elves who prefer to live in forests or along the coasts in structures made from the surrounding region. They were most loved by Ossë the vassal of Ulmo, a Maia of the oceans and they learned to shipwright, seafaring, and singing from him. Of all the Eldar, they have the fairest voices. Sindar are the quietest and calmest of the Elves, less frivolous and playful than the Silvan Elves, less passionate and fiery than the Noldor. However, their feelings run deep and once aroused, the Sindar are not easily stayed.

Appearance: Tall and lithe, similar though not as stately in stature to the Noldor. The Sindar are light and fair of skin with dark hair and have pale blue or grey eyes. They tend to dress in a practical manner and are not overly concerned with possessions or appearances. As their name suggest, they also prefer clothing of a neutral grey color. Such garb has amazing camouflaging powers, particularly under the moonlight.

Homelands: Lindon; Lórien; Mirkwood; and Rivendell
Height: Male 6’2” – 6’6” Female 5’8” – 6’0”
Weight: Male 180-200 Female 90-110
Age: Formula (Might x Wisdom x 72)
Attribute Points: 22
Skill Points: 33
Valour Points: 9
Merit Points: 11
Flaw Points: Up to 7
Merits: Attuned; Enchantments; Fair (4); Fleet of Foot; Ghost-scorn; Gladden (2); Stalwart (2); Keen Sense (Sight 6 and Hearing 3); Resistance (Cold; Heat; Fire; Pain; Poison); Immunity (Disease and Illness); Swift to Heal; Wander-rest; Woven-words
Flaws: Arrogance; Call of the Sea; Parted (Dwarves); Proud

Silvan

Sub-Culture: Wood Elves are believed to be of Nandor origins that did not cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey, but settled in the Vales of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great. For this they are so called the Avari or Moriquendi, which means they have never seen the Light of the Trees. Silvan Elves are the most numerous of the Quendi, making their homes in the trees, hidden deep within the forests of Middle-earth. They share a great love and have a talent for both music and song. Wood Elves are also renowned hunters and archers. Of all the Eldar, they share a harmony and affinity for the natural wilds and are very adept at moving silently, especially in the woodlands.

Appearance: Silvan Elves are not as tall or noble as their brethren, yet are still fair to mortal eyes. Also quite light of build, Silvan Elves tend to have sandy hair and eye colors of blue and green. Wood Elves prefer garments of forest green, brown or gray. Their clothes are more rustic and functional than that of the Noldor or Sindar, yet are very well-made and subtly adorned.

Homelands: Edhellond; Lindon; Lórien; Mirkwood; and Rivendell
Height: Male 6’0” – 6’4” Female 5’6” – 5’10”
Weight: Male 160-180 Female 70-90
Age: Formula (Might x Wisdom x 72)
Attribute Points: 20
Skill Points: 30
Valour Points: 10
Merit Points: 10
Flaw Points: Up to 8
Merits: Attuned; Enchantments; Fair (3); Fleet of Foot; Ghost-scorn; Gladden (2); Stalwart (2); Keen Sense (Sight 6 and Hearing 3); Resistance (Cold; Heat; Fire; Pain; Poison); Immunity (Disease and Illness); Swift to Heal; Wander-rest; Woven-words
Flaws: Arrogance; Fey; Parted (Dwarves); Proud

Dwarves

Culture: Dwarves, or the Naugrim, are descendants of the Seven Fathers of the Khazâd, who were created by the Vala Aulë (The Smith) out of stone in a great hall under the mountains during the Ages of Darkness, when Melkor and his evil servants in Utumno and Angband held sway over all Middle-earth. Therefore they were made stout and strong, unaffected by cold and fire, and sturdier than the races that followed. Aulë knew of the great evil of Melkor, so he made the Dwarves stubborn, indomitable, and persistent in labour and hardship. They were brave in battle and their pride and could not be broken. Deep-delving miners, masons, metal-workers and they were the most wondrous of stone-carvers. As their toil was long, they were each granted a life of about two and a half centuries, for they were mortal; they could also be slain in battle.

Appearance: Dwarves are tough, but not tall, being four to five feet in height. They are a stout, ungainly people without the graceful form of the Eldar. Dwarves have deep-set eyes, dark hair and a ruby complexion. Each will wear a long beard which is often braided. They favor heavy garb, with colourful hooded cloaks and an affinity for fine jewelry.

Homelands: Blue Mountains; Grey Mountains; Erebor; Iron Hills; and Khazad-dûm
Height: Male 4’2” – 5’0” Female 4’0” – 4’10”
Weight: Male 140-200 Female 120-180
Age: Formula (Might + Wisdom + 36)
Attribute Points: 20
Skill Points: 30
Valour Points: 10
Merit Points: 10
Flaw Points: Up to 8
Merits: Enchantments; Stalwart (2); Indomitable; Keen Sense (Hearing and Sight 1); Resistance (Cold and Heat 3); Immunity (Fire); Tireless; Sturdy
Flaws: Aversion (Animals); Covetous; Obsession (Gold and Mithril); Possessive; Proud; Stubborn

Men

Men: The second-born, also known as Hildor. Men came with the Rising of the Sun. In the land the Elves called Hildórien, land of the followers, which was in the far East of Middle-earth. Called too the Atani in Quenya, or Edain in Sindarin, which means Second People. They are a mortal race comprised of countless branches. Culturally, they are sundered into High, Middle and Low kindreds. Men have been given the Gift of Ilúvatar, Death -- they live brief but fiery and passionate lives and upon that end they are free to leave the bounds of Arda. They're the most numerous of the Peoples of Middle-earth, and are often considered both flawed and vulnerable. Men have been called weak race for they succumb readily to pestilence and the rough elements of the World. But they are a stubborn people who are very adaptable and have come to do great deeds within their brief span of years.

High Men

Sub-Culture: The Edain are powerful warriors and builders of great kingdoms, for their initiative match their physical prowess. By the Third Age there are too few left with this royal heritage for their line has diminished with the mingling of blood from lesser men.

Black Númenóreans: Long ago a group of High Men settled in the southern coastal region of Umbar; however they fell sway to the power of Sauron and were called Black Númenóreans they ruled over an evil haven that raided and pillaged the coastlands of Middle-earth.

Dúnedain of Arnor: Called also Men of Westernesse they are now nearly lost with the only remnants remaining with the regal and rugged Rangers of the North.

Dúnedain of Gondor: The Stewards of Gondor still hold the line of High Men and the secret guardians east of Osgiliath, the Rangers of Ithilien still carry true qualities of the Númenóreans.

Knights of Dol Amroth: Imrazôr the Númenórean wedded the Silvan Elf-maid named Mithrellas. This Elven-blood is still carried in the houses of the small province on the coasts of Belfalas there remain the high descendents of Galador.

Men of the Vales of Anduin: dwell in the great valley between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood. It is said they are close in kin, or have descended from the Edain of the First Age.

Appearance: High Men are of great stature, even taller than the Elves. They are also heavier-boned and physically stronger, albeit less nimble, than the Firstborn. Their hair is typically dark-brown or coal-black, and their eyes blue, grey, or black. Most branches of High Men tend to be fair-skinned and are almost always clean-shaven.

Homelands: Arnor; Dol Amroth; Gondor; Umbar; and the Vales of Anduin
Height: Male 6’8” – 7’0” Female 6’0” – 6’4”
Weight: Male 240-280 Female 130-160
Age: Formula (Might + Wisdom + 24)
Attribute Points: 18
Skill Points: 27
Valour Points: 11
Merit Points: 9
Flaw Points: Up to 9
Merits: Elf-Friend (except Black Númenóreans); Fair (1); Resistance (Cold – Men of the Vales of Anduin); Stalwart (Black Númenóreans and Dúnedain 3; Knights of Dol Amroth and Men of the Vales of Anduin 2)
Flaws: Enemy (see section for each sub-culture); Proud; Swayed (9 - Black Númenóreans); Weak-Willed (1)

Middle Men

Sub-Culture: These are the lines of those Men who did not take the journey to Númenor. They do not have the stature or the natural life of the High Men. There are many branches to these groups of Middle Peoples – some are loftier than others.

Anóriens: Are the people who live in and around the great city of Minas Tirith. Though they are descended in part from the Númenóreans of old only the Stewards of Gondor still retain this line.

Beornings: Famed for their cakes of honey, these are the heirs of Beorn. They live near the Carrock and in the northern vales of the Anduin. It is said that some Beornings are skin-changers who have managed to retain their ancestor’s ability to take bear form.

Drúedain: Are a strange, secretive and dwindling folk who dwell in Drúwaith Iaur and the Drúedain Forest. Also called the Wild Men of the Woods or Woses. They are shy and have an odd affinity with nature and believed to have unique powers.

Gondorians: make up in large part the peoples of the South-kingdom. Along with the Anóriens, they too are the weakened descendants of those Númenóreans exiles who fled to Middle-earth.

Hillmen of Rhudaur: Are an evil people that lived in the northeast of Eriador. Their origins come from the House of Bëor. During the decay of Arnor they were allied with the Witch-King of Angmar, but were so diminished that it is not known if any are still left living.

Lake-men: Hail from the town of Esgaroth on Long Lake to the south of Erebor. A trading folk, they have dealings with the Men of Dale as well as Dwarves and the Wood-elves of Mirkwood.

Men of Dale: Dwell in the city of the same name which lies at the foot of the Lonely Mountain. In the great days of old, Dale in the north was said to have flourished. They are kin to the Lake-men.

Men of Dorwinion: Tend to the vineyards in the wine region of the Rhovanian Wilderland. These folk are akin to the Men of Dale. The vintners of Dorwinion trade often with Thranduil’s Kingdom of Wood-Elves in Mirkwood and the Lake-men.

Men of Eriador: Are the middle-folk that lived in wide area on the western edges of the Kingdom of Arnor. It is not known if any yet remain in the lone-lands running north of Minhiriath southward to the reaches of Endwaith.

Men of the Greyflood: Dwelled at one time in the vales along the River Greyflood. They are kin to the Men of Eriador and share a similar fate as it is unknown whether any survived to this day.

Rohirrim: Are the Horse-lords of Rohan who are renowned for their skills in the breeding and riding of horses. They are the last remnants of the Northmen that once dwelt in Rhovanian.

Woodmen of Mirkwood: Share a distant kinship to the Rohirrim coming from the same folk who settled in the lands east of the Misty Mountains. They settled within the north-eastern and central-western borders of the great forest Mirkwood.

Appearance: Their hair and eyes run the spectrum of normal shades. They are less lordly in appearance than the High Men, and males often wear beards or mustaches. Clothing varies by different sub-cultures (Drúedain distinction is covered in separate section).

Homelands: Throughout the Hither Lands, see individual sub-culture for details
Height: Male 5’6” – 6’4” Female 5’2” – 5’10”
Weight: Male 180-220 Female 100-140
Age: Formula (Might + Wisdom + 18)
Attribute Points: 16
Skill Points: 24
Valour Points: 7
Merit Points: 8
Flaw Points: Up to 10
Merits: See section for each individual sub-culture
Flaws: See section for each individual sub-culture

Low Men

Sub-Culture: The groups of mortals who have long been subjugated to the Shadow of Morgoth. Some of these Men are moved by the greed of conquest and plunder. Others of them have been ever hostile to the kingdoms of the West and bare a fanatical hatred to the High Men. A small number of these have moved away from the Darkness and are not completely evil.

Balchoth: Are a fierce, barbaric people akin to the race of Easterlings, who dwell under the sway of Dol Guldur. Although they were defeated by the forces of Gondor and Rohan many centuries prior to the War of the Ring, they still remain allied to Sauron. They live on the eastern borders of Mirkwood.

Corsairs of Umbar: These pirates are a warlike race that traces their origins to a mixture of Black Númenóreans, Haradrim, and the coastal peoples of Gondorian descent. The followers of a once noble lord from Gondor – Castamir the Usurper, these men use slaves to pull oars on their black-sailed ships.

Dunlendings: Are a sullen folk, descended from the people who dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. They inhabit the Dunland in the southern region of Eriador. Dunlendings are the ancient enemies of the Rohirrim and consider the lands of Rohan theirs by right. These Wild Men have made a pact with Saruman and are pledged to drive the Horsemen from the Mark.

Easterlings: This is the given name to all the peoples from the unknown lands of the East. This name applies to all the Easterlings not specified in a distinct culture. These cruel fighters tend to be short and stocky with swarthy, bearded faces.

Haradrim: Or Southrons, as they are also called come from lands in the far south of Middle-earth. They are a fierce, warlike people with doughty, dark-skin. These Men of Harad are believed to be desert wanderers and ride horses or the Mûmakil.

Men of Angmar: Are the kin of the Forowaith who came to dwell in the lands on the northern fringes of Middle-earth. These evil men wandered into the fallow lands of Angmar and cast shadows of fear on Arnor. Called the Men of Carn Dûm, it is not known if any still exist.

Men of Bree: Have descended from the People of the White Mountains and kin to the Dunlendings. They founded a settlement around a tall, wooded hill not far from the ancient Barrow-downs. Not given over entirely to evil, the broad, short and brown-haired men share Bree with the Hobbits.

Men of Khand: Come from the little-known land south and east of Mordor. It is believed that they are of mixed blood of Easterlings and Southrons.
Thralls of Nurn: Are the slaves who tend the fields in the lowlands surrounding the Sea of Núrnen. It is believed Sauron has formed a host of grim, axe-wielding men from the strongest of these slaves.

Snowmen of Forochel: Called also the Lossoth, are a strange, unfriendly people, a remnant of the Forowaith, men of the far-off days accustomed to the bitter cold of the icy wastes. They can make shelter using only snow and can run on the ice with bones on their feet and pull wheel-less carts.

Variags: Hail from the lands of Khand; they are akin to the Easterlings and Haradrim, though they have a distinct culture which separates them from the others who also dwell there.

Wain Riders: Are a people who come from the lands east of the seat of Rhûn, they are eager for conquest and are filled with a hatred for Gondor. These men are strong and well-armed; with their chieftains leading them in chariots. They defend their lands from many fortified camps of wagons and journey in great, laden wains.

Appearance: Most branches of Low Men are not a tall, but broad, strong of limb, and swarthy-skinned with dark eyes and hair (see individual sub-cultures for exceptions).

Homelands: Typically in the distant East, South and North of Middle-earth, see individual sub-culture for details
Height: Male 5’2” – 5’10” Female 4’10” – 5’6”
Weight: Male 160-220 Female 100-160
Age: Formula (Might + Wisdom + 12)
Attribute Points: 14
Skill Points: 21
Valour Points: 6
Merit Points: 7
Flaw Points: Up to 11
Merits: See section for each individual sub-culture
Flaws: See section for each individual sub-culture

Hobbits

Hobbits: The Kuduk are an unobtrusive but very ancient people, more numerous in this Age than any other. They love peace and quiet and good tilled earth. They do not understand or like machines more complicated than a water-mill or forge-bellows. They are very shy of the Big Folk. They are quick of hearing and sharp-eyed and are inclined to be fat and do not hurry unnecessarily; they are nonetheless nimble and deft in their movements and skillful with tools. Hobbits are a little people (from two to four feet), smaller than Dwarves, less stout and stocky. They have large, very hairy feet, which are almost immune to cold; and so they go about almost always barefoot. They are good at disappearing swiftly and silently when the need be. Despite their soft appearance, they can be quite tough and have an amazing resilience. Hobbits also share a love of good food, pipeweed and ale. They tend to wear linen and wool garb, with brightly coloured vests and hats. In Hither Lands there are three sub-cultures of Hobbits.

Homelands: Four Farthings of the Shire; Breeland; Buckland; and West March
Height: Male 3’3” – 4’3” Female 3’0” – 4’0”
Weight: Male 50-100 Female 40-80
Age: Formula (Might + Wisdom + 30)
Attribute Points: 12
Skill Points: 18
Valour Points: 12
Merit Points: 6
Flaw Points: Up to 12
Merits: Dauntless; Elusive; Keen Sense (Sight and Sound 1); Riddle-master; Resilience; Resistance (Pain); Stalwart (1); Sure to the Mark
Flaws: Aversion (Open Water – exception Stoors); Obsession (Pipeweed and Ale); Wanderlust (Fallohides only)

Fallohides

Sub-culture: These Hobbits are much more open to outside influences and adventures than the other two branches. They are skilled in song and speech. Fallohides are friendlier to other peoples of Middle-earth and share a fondness with the Elves. They have retained a hunting tradition, and thus are naturally bolder and more inquisitive than the Harfoots or Stoors, but are less gifted in the arts of farming and agriculture.

Appearance: Fallohides are taller and slimmer than the other two branches, with some reaching a height of four feet and more. Their skin and hair tends to be fair, and they do not grow beards.

Harfoots

Sub-culture: The most common branch of Hobbits, they live in holes called smials, a habit which Harfoots have long preserved. They are also on very friendly terms with the Dwarves, who travel through the High Pass on the Great Road.

Appearance: Harfoots are the shortest of the Hobbits and are browner of skin. They keep no beards, and do not wear any footwear.

Stoors

Sub-culture: This branch of Hobbit-kind dwells in the flat lands along the riverside and are adept at fishing. Many of the Stoors use boats and can swim a habit which set them apart from the Harfoots who live in the hillsides, and the Fallohides who prefer the forests.

Appearance: Stoors are broader in build than the other Hobbits, and had large hands and feet. Of all Hobbits they most resemble the Race of Men. They are the only Hobbit-kind who can grow facial hair. Some will also wear boots.

[vgunn]

BTW - The next gen pdf is jaw-dropping amazing, I saw a preview of it and it looks unbelievable! Cannot wait for people to see it.

[scooviduvoctagon]

BTW - The next gen pdf is jaw-dropping amazing, I saw a preview of it and it looks unbelievable! Cannot wait for people to see it.

Well - when are we gonna see it!?

(c8=


We've been waiting for _weeks_ now for an update! E-gads, man - have you no sense of empathy!


Looking forward to the next update to your site....


Beers!

[Nefilim306]

Originally posted by scooviduvoctagon
Well - when are we gonna see it!?

(c8=


We've been waiting for _weeks_ now for an update! E-gads, man - have you no sense of empathy!


Looking forward to the next update to your site....


Beers!

Sorry, working as fast as I can on the pdf, but time is limited ...

AS

[vgunn]

Some information on the progess of the new pdf (Andreas is keeping me on target!):

SECTION NAME WRITTEN LAYOUT

Cover x x
Title Page x x
Credits & Contents

Prologue These Hither Lands x x
Forward
Acknowledgements
Disclaimer
Introduction x x
Setting x x

Chapter 1 Herald to Adventure x x
Character Creation
Concept x x
Races x x
Attributes x x
Skills x x
Fea x x
Hroa x x
Merits x x
Flaws x x
Final Details
Character Sheets x

Chapter Two x
Archetypes
Equipment Lists

Chapter Three
Ruleset x x
Modifiers x x
Margin of success x x

Chapter Four
Valour x x
(Example - Sam vs Shelob, Boromir's last stand, Bard vs. Smaug)
Corruption x x
Taint x x
Honour x x
Duty x x
Ardour x x
Renown x x
Luck x x

Chapter Five
Combat x x
Damage x x
Threat x x
Armour x x
Shield x x
Cover x x
Battle-feats x x
Size x x
Complications in Battle x x

Chapter Six
Further perils x x
Fear x x
Healing

Chapter Seven: Magic
Enchantments x x
Spell-Craft x x
Lore-Craft x x
Dwimmer-Craft x x
Sub-Creation x x
Intent & Purpose x x
Method x x
Material x x
Time & Effeckt x x
Exclusion x x
Cost of Enchantments x x
Power Level x x
Weariness x x
Out of the frying pan ... Into the fire x x
List of spells, Lore and Dwimmer

Chapter Eight: Of Peoples
Of Peoples x x
Elves x x
Dwarves x x
Men x x
Hobbits x x

Chapter Nine: Experience
Advancement x
Experience x
Age x
Effects of Aging x

Chapter Ten
Brief history of Middle-earth
Brief geography of Middle-earth

Chapter Eleven
Allies
Selection of Heroes (Aragorn and so on)

Chapter Twelve
Enemies
Servants of Shadow

Epilogue
Sample Adventure

[scooviduvoctagon]

Some information on the progess of the new pdf (Andreas is keeping me on target!):

Very cool! Getting closer... keep up the great work!

( and beers to Andreas for holding you to course! )


(c8=

[vgunn]

Yesterday we posted a 25 page teaser on character generation for Hither Lands. Progress is steady and we hope to meet (the now) August 1 release date for the final pdf. Character archetypes are also now coming out, as we have finished up the Shieldmaiden of Rohan.

Shieldmaiden of Rohan

Éohild

“… I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield a blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.”
~ The Return of the King, Book V, Chapter II; The Passing of the Grey Company

Description

Name: Éohild
Gender: Female
Features: Tall, standing with noble grace; long, often braided blond hair; deep set blue eyes with high cheekbones
Race / Culture: Rohirrim / Westford of the Riddermark
Lineage: Daughter of Hengest and Miriláf
Age: 23
Height: 5'6"
Weight: 120 lbs.
Renown: 3

Attributes (16)

Wit: 2
Might: 2
Wisdom: 3
Nimbleness: 4
Will: 3
Luck: 2 (9, 5)

Fëa

Valour – 7 points
Corruption – 0 points
Taint – 0 points
Honour – Role of woman and warrior
Duty – Defense of the Westfold
Ardour – Loyalty to Clan Ethias

Hroä

Vitality – 6 points (1 reserve point from Stalwart Merit)
Stamina – 10 points
Initiative – 10 (+3 from Quick to Act Merit)
Perception – 4
Movement – 18 feet
Encumbrance – 72/144/216

Skills (24)

Aid: 1
Armed Combat: 2
Balance: 2
Culture: 1
Diplomacy: 1
Influence: 1
Knowledge: 2
Languages: 2 (Rohirric; Westron)
Observation: 1
Performance: 1
Ranged Combat: 2
Riding: 3
Stealth: 1
Survival: 1
Tending: 1
Unarmed Combat: 1
Wilderness: 1

Merits (8 + 10 from Flaws)

Dauntless (1)
Fair (1)
Indomitable (1)
Night-eyes (1)
Resistance (2 – Pain)
Quick to Act
Stalwart (1)
Sure to the Mark


Flaws (Innate and 10 used)

Enemy (Dunlendings)
Fealty (Erkenbrand)
Proud
Stern
Stubborn
Weak-willed (1)

Battle-feats

Press
Sunder Shield

Armor and Weapons

Mail Shirt
Short Blade
Short Bow (24 Arrows)
Small Shield
Spear

Gear and Coin


Background

Born in 2998 of the Third Age, Éohild is the sister-daughter to Erkenbrand, Master of the Westfold and the Hornburg. Her father is Hengest, the Erkenstedamaegister – the highest authority on horses in the Mark and one who has been chosen by King Théoden to supervise their breeding in Rohan. He is a descendent of Helm Hammerhand, and is Ethias titled – one of the three clans of the Mark. Her mother is Miriláf from the House of Widfel – a line lords and nobles hailing from the West Emnet of Rohan. Éohild is the younger sister to Elfhelm a gifted Rider of Rohan and Marshal of the Garrison of Edoras. Long have her people dwelled in the western reaches of the Riddermark, controlling and maintaining the stronghold of Helm’s Deep. Her duty is to her father’s house in the Westfold as she is unwed and without children. Stern, yet caring she is a woman of great presence and conviction. Éohild excelled early in horsemanship and even took up to dueling with her older brother. Though often bloodied and bruised, she refused to yield and earned respect from those around her. Though she is not plain of look, her strong demeanor has caused many young men to shy away from courting or asking for her hand in marriage. On her twenty-third birthday she asked and was granted permission to train as one of the Shieldmaidens of Rohan.

Roleplaying a Shieldmaiden of Rohan

Long have the Rohirrim trained young women in arms, to better defend their homeland from those who might strike when the settlement is left seemingly undefended. Most Shieldmaidens come from noble families who take pride in the choices of their daughters. However some have, by their courage and their deeds, proven worthy to be outfitted for war. A Shieldmaiden must be willing to get her hands dirty and make sacrifices. The way of the Shieldmaiden can be hard and she may have to bide her time in an unsavory position until the time to fight is at hand. It is a difficult role to choose and thus rarely are there more than half a dozen Shieldmaidens at any one time. With this calling, a Shieldmaiden must come to balance the place of a woman and the ways of a warrior. Her first duty is to the home, where she selflessly serves as lady to her lord – be that father or husband. As a warrior, a Shieldmaiden must have the strength and courage to stand without question. Shieldmaidens often help the nobles in organizing the defenses of Rohan. Rarely do Shieldmaidens see battle, and even fewer actually ride into it.

We also have a massive equipment list and rules for commerce in Middle-earth.

EQUIPMENT LIST SECTION

EQUIPMENT LIST – HITHER LANDS

Commerce in the Hither Lands

The coins of Middle-earth are specific measures of precious metals (typically gold, silver or copper) rather than items of abstract and fixed economic value. With their value derived from their weight and purity, metal coins are trusted and used regularly by people across Middle-earth. Even the coins of ancient or lost kingdoms retain value long after the authorities that minted them have ceased to exist. Only in the greatest cities and kingdoms of Middle-earth is the rate of exchange artificially fixed; in rural outlands and wild regions, the value of a coin can fluctuate greatly according to the dictates of local supply and demand.

The varied cultures and communities of Middle-earth use different names for their coins. The coin of least value—known as a penny in the Shire and throughout much of Eriador—is the copper piece, normally used to purchase minor goods and items. Twelve copper pieces equal the value of one silver piece, known as a Tharni in the kingdom of Gondor. Four such silver pieces equal the value of one gold piece. The gold piece, called a Castar in many areas, is circulated rarely due to its considerable value. It is said that Mithril pieces were once minted and traded, but these coins have long since disappeared from regular circulation.

Currency Rate of Exchange:

12 Copper Pieces (CP) = 1 Silver Piece (SP)
4 Silver Pieces (SP) = 1 Gold Piece (GP)

Despite the general reliability of coins, much of the commerce in the Hither Lands is done through the barter system. Even in areas where coinage is fairly common (such as the Shire), people often engage in barter-based exchanges. Many of the myriad cultures of Middle-earth have developed other, unique economic practices; these might include distributing wealth through the bonds of kinship or sovereign obligation. Gift-giving and rewards are common transactions; they often involve an individual receiving rewards and honors from local authorities in commemoration of his or her efforts made on behalf of the community.

A second method is provided concerning money matters in the Hither Lands for those who do not wish to squabble over every last penny. Each character begins play with a Resource Level of 0 which represents their financial assets. At this rank a character can purchase basic items and equipment, beyond what was given to them during character creation. Items on the following equipment list will have a wealth requirement number. An item which has a  may be purchased by those with a Resource Level of 0 or higher, while those items with a number indicate a minimum level of Wealth is required. A character may then buy any number of items (within reason) with a value equal to, or less than their current Wealth level. Wealth/Poverty levels are used to reflect the financial resources (or lack thereof) of an individual, but there are some limits – use common sense. The Gamemaster may reduce a character’s Wealth level on certain transactions which are costly. The actual availability of a character's assets may vary as conditions in the campaign plotline do change over time. Listed below are an optional Wealth Merit and Poverty Flaw which may be purchased to determine the Resource Level for a character.

WEALTH – 2-POINT COST PER LEVEL (6)
Indicates a level of resources available beyond that which is given during character creation. Wealth, in general, is the abundance and accumulation of coin and property, though this may vary according to race and culture. Accruement of such resources is subject to change during the course of the game. In addition, for each level of Wealth; a character will gain 1 point of Renown.

(1) Comfortable – The character is a modest entrepreneur with an allowance of 300 Silver Pennies per year. No savings or land has been accumulated to this point. They will own a simple home, a decent mount and some possessions. Renown is increased by 1 point; however some time is devoted to management of the business.
(2) Prosperous – The character is a decent entrepreneur with an allowance of 600 Silver Pennies per year. Savings of 1000 Silver Pennies and a tract of land/estate have been accumulated to this point. They will have a passable home and possessions. Renown is increased by 1 point, however much time is devoted to management of the business.
(3) Well-off – The character is a successful entrepreneur with an allowance of 1200 Silver Pennies per year. Savings of 5000 Silver Pennies and some tracts of land/estates have been accumulated to this point. They will have a reasonable home and possessions. Renown is increased by 1 point, and though they do not want for anything, neither do they have a great deal of wealth.
(4) Affluent – The character is a flourishing entrepreneur with an allowance of 2400 Silver Pennies per year. Savings of 10000 Gold Pennies and large tracts/estates of land have been accumulated to this point. They will have a respectable home and possessions. Renown is increased by 1 point, however at this level of Wealth a character must take 1 of the following Flaws – no Quality points are gained (Adversary, Arrogant, Enemy, Fealty, Possessive, Proud, Reckless, or Stubborn).
(5) Privileged – The character is a remarkable entrepreneur with an allowance of 4800 Silver Pennies per year. Savings of 50000 Gold Pennies and many tracts of land/estates have been accumulated to this point. They will have a reputable home and possessions. Renown is increased by 1 point, however at this level of Wealth a character must take 2 of the following Flaws – no Quality points are gained (Adversary, Arrogant, Enemy, Fealty, Possessive, Proud, Reckless, or Stubborn).
(6) Rich – The character is a astonishing entrepreneur with an allowance of 9600 Silver Pennies per year. Savings of 100000 Gold Pennies and vast tracts of land/estates have been accumulated to this point. They will have a considerable home and possessions. Renown is increased by 1 point, however at this level of Wealth a character must take 3 of the following Flaws – no Quality points are gained (Adversary, Arrogant, Enemy, Fealty, Possessive, Proud, Reckless, or Stubborn).

POVERTY – 1-POINT COST PER LEVEL (6)
Is the state of having little or no coin/property. The character will have a scant few possessions and often times these will be in deplorable condition. Poverty levels are fluid and there will be opportunities for one to improve (or worsen) their financial situation. For each level of Poverty a character will lose 1 point of Renown, however it cannot be reduced below zero. This lack of means can also bring forth hardship, misery and want. Impoverished characters may be forced in to acts of extreme desperation.

(1) Reduced – The character earns a small amount (20 Silver Pennies per month) and has saved 30 Silver Pennies. They live in a three room home, have a number of insignificant belongings and wear simple clothing. Renown is decreased by 1 point and the physical and mental condition of the character is strained.
(2) Unfortunate – The character earns a trifle amount (10 Silver Pennies per month) and has saved 20 Silver Pennies. They live in a two room home, have some paltry belongings and wear shabby clothing. Renown is decreased by 1 point and the physical and mental condition of the character is very strained.
(3) Meager – The character makes a mere pittance (5 Silver Pennies per month) and has saved 10 Silver Pennies. They live in a one room home, have only a few belongings and wear worn clothing. Renown is decreased by 1 point and the physical and mental condition of the character is greatly reduced.
(4) Poor – The character has very little resources and no savings. They live in a dirty shelter, have only a a small number of belongings and wear unclean clothing. Renown is decreased by 1 point and at this level of Poverty a character must take 1 Flaw – Quality points are gained only from Poverty Level (Aversion, Covetous, Crippled, Despair, Feeble, Frail, Ill-fated, Reckless or Weak-willed).
(5) Indigence – The character is without resources and is in dire need. They are homeless, have only a couple of belongings and wear soiled clothing. Renown is decreased by 1 point and at this level of Poverty a character must take 2 Flaws – Quality points are gained only from Poverty Level (Aversion, Covetous, Crippled, Despair, Feeble, Frail, Ill-fated, Reckless or Weak-willed).
(6) Destitute – The character is completely without resources and is in utter want. They are homeless, have only a single item and wear filthy, tattered rags for clothing. Renown is decreased by 1 point and at this level of Poverty a character must take 3 Flaws – Quality points are gained only from Poverty Level (Aversion, Covetous, Crippled, Despair, Feeble, Frail, Ill-fated, Reckless or Weak-willed).

• A note on money matters – very little in-depth information on the structure of commerce in Middle-earth is revealed by Tolkien. Individual gamemasters are free to alter the economics of the Hither Lands to suit their own campaigns and time periods.


Price Differentials

Below are listed the average prices and/or resource level for a wide variety of goods and services available throughout Middle-earth. In general, the cost listed for an item or service represents the cost of a basic, utilitarian, or average-quality version of the commodity. For those willing to pay extra, however, higher-quality versions of almost every item or service are readily available (although exceptionally high-quality commodities are generally only available at major cities or the finest markets). As a standard rule, a commodity of fine quality is more durable, attractive, or more skillfully designed than an average item, and costs twice the listed price. A commodity of lavish quality is exceptionally beautiful, luxurious, or well-crafted, and costs three to five times the listed price (at the gamemaster’s discretion). Gamemasters are free to make higher-quality items available to characters who can pay for them. In certain cases below, the prices for higher-quality items are listed as examples.

In addition, the price of commodities can vary from one region to another—items and goods that are cheap and common in one area might be rare and expensive in another, depending on the vagaries of supply and demand. Below are some recommended price multipliers for commodities in certain parts of Middle-earth:

Dale, Edoras and Lake-town: x2 normal price
Bree and the Shire: x3 normal price

• The equipment list to follow is quite exhaustive and the gamemaster may condense to suit any adventure or campaign

SUPPLIES AND SUNDRIES

Clothing and Personal Items

Belt 2CP 
Boots 1SP 
Bracelet
Copper 2SP 
Silver 5SP (1)
Gold 10GP (2)
Jeweled 25+GP (3)

Breeches 6CP 
Brooch
Copper 1SP 
Silver 3SP (1)
Gold 5GP (2)
Jeweled 10+GP (3)

Cap 4CP 
Cape 7CP 
Cloak 9CP 
Doublet 3SP (1)
Dress 5CP 
Earrings
Copper 8CP 
Silver 2SP (1)
Gold 4GP (2)
Jeweled 20+GP (3)

Gloves 1SP 
Gown 2+GP (2)
Hat 6CP 
Knife Sheath 4CP 
Locket 5+GP (2)
Loincloth 2CP 
Money Belt 4CP 
Nightshirt 3CP 
Pendant 3+SP (1)
Pin 6CP 
Purse
Cloth 2CP 
Linen 4CP 
Leather 6CP 
Ring
Copper 10CP 
Silver 3SP (1)
Gold 5GP (2)
Jeweled 25+GP (3)
Robes 8CP 
Sandals 2CP 
Sash 3CP 
Sword Scabbard 9CP 
Shirt
Cloth 3CP 
Linen 6CP 
Woven 1SP (1)

Shoes 5CP 
Slippers 4CP 
Surcoat
Linen 8CP 
Quilted 10CP 
Woven 2SP (1)
Tunic
Clothe 5CP 
Linen 7CP 
Woven 1+SP (1)
Trousers
Cloth 5CP 
Linen 10CP 
Woven 1+SP (1)
Vest
Linen 8CP 
Woven 1SP (1)
Leather 1+SP (1)

Taverns and Inns

Ale
Pint 2CP 
Cask 2GP (2)
Barrel 20GP (3)
Banquet
Simple 1GP (2)
Fine 5GP (2)
Lavish 10+GP (3)
Brandy
Glass 9CP 
Bottle 2SP (1)
Cask 8GP (2)
Cider
Pint 1CP 
Cask 1GP (2)
Barrel 5GP (2)
Horse Grain
Barley (Half-board) 2CP 
Barley (Full-board) 4CP 
Corn (Half-board) 3CP 
Corn (Full-board) 6CP 
Oats (Half-board) 4CP 
Oats (Full-board) 8CP 
Horse Hay
Clover (Half-board) 1CP 
Clover (Full-board) 2CP 
Grass (Half-board) 2CP 
Grass (Full-board) 4CP 
Straw (Half-board) 3CP 
Straw (Full-board) 6CP 
Honey Mead
Pint 3CP 
Cask 4GP (2)
Barrel 25+GP (3)
Lodging
Simple 6CP 
Fine 1SP 
Lavish 1+GP (2)
Meal
Simple 5CP 
Fine 10CP 
Lavish 1+SP (1)
Rum
Glass 4CP 
Bottle 1SP 
Cask 3GP (2)
Stable – Boarding
Simple 2CP 
Fine 6CP 
Lavish 1SP 
Wine
Glass 3CP 
Bottle 1SP 
Barrel 25+GP (3)

Foodstuffs

Berries
Brandied (pint) 1SP 
Candied (pint) 6CP 
Dried (lb.) 4CP 
Fresh (lb.) 2CP 

Bread – various (loaf) 1CP 
Butter (lb.) 2CP 
Cheese
Wheel (1b.) 4CP 
Whey (lb.) 2CP 
Cooking Oil (pint) 3CP 
Dates (lb.) 7CP 
Eggs – various (dozen) 1CP 
Figs (lb.) 6CP 
Fish (lb.)
Cured 4CP 
Dried 5CP 
Fresh 1CP 
Roasted 6CP 
Salted 2CP 
Smoked 3CP 

Flour – various (lb.) 2CP 
Fowl (lb.)
Cured 5CP 
Dried 6CP 
Fresh 2CP 
Roasted 7CP 
Salted 3CP 
Smoked 4CP 
Fruit - various
Brandied (pint) 1SP 
Candied (pint) 6CP 
Dried (lb.) 3CP 
Fresh (lb.) 1CP 
Game (lb.)
Cured 6CP 
Dried 7CP 
Fresh 3CP 
Roasted 8CP 
Salted 4CP 
Smoked 5CP 

Grains – various (lb.) 3CP 
Herbs
Fresh (lb.) 2CP 
Dried (lb.) 6CP 

Honey (pint) 6CP 
Jam – various (pint) 9CP 
Jelly – various (pint) 3CP 
Lard (pint) 2CP 
Marmalade – various (pint) 7CP 
Meat – various (lb.)
Cured 4CP 
Dried 5CP 
Fresh 1CP 
Roasted 6CP 
Salted 2CP 
Smoked 3CP 

Milk – various (pint) 1CP 
Molasses (pint) 5CP 
Mushrooms – various (lb.) 6CP 
Nuts – various (lb.) 4CP 
Raw Sugar (lb.) 3CP 
Seeds – various (lb.) 1CP 
Spices – various (lb.) 2CP 
Tea – various (lb.) 6CP 
Vegetables, assorted
Dried (lb.) 3CP 
Pickled (pint) 5CP 
Fresh (lb.) 1CP 

Transportation

Barge 50GP (3)
Boat
Small 75GP (3)
Large 150+GP (4)

Carriage 25+GP (3)
Cart 3SP (1)
Chariot 50+GP (3)
Horse – Draft
Light 4SP 
Medium 1+GP (1)
Heavy 2+GP (2)
Horse – Travel
Light 1GP (1)
Medium 5+GP (2)
Heavy 10+GP (3)
Horse – War
Light 10+GP (3)
Medium 20+GP (3)
Heavy 50+GP (3)
Pony
Small 3SP 
Medium 4SP 
Large 1+GP (1)
Ship
Coaster 1000+GP (4)
Cog 5000+GP (5)
Cutter 20000+GP (6)
Dhow 15000+GP (6)
Longship 10000+GP (6)
Sloop 2500+GP (4)
Trader 7500+GP (5)
War Galley 25000+GP (6)

Wain 1+GP (1)

Various Sundries

Bag
Cloth 1CP 
Linen 3CP 
Leather 6CP 
Barrel – Storage
Small 4CP 
Medium 8CP 
Large 1GP (1)
Basket – Woven
Small 2CP 
Medium 4CP 
Large 8CP 
Bottle
Ceramic 3CP 
Glass 6CP 
Metal 9CP 

Box – Ornamental 1+GP (1)
Bucket
Cloth 2CP 
Leather 6CP 
Wooden 8CP 

Cabinet 2+GP (2)
Cask
Small 6CP 
Medium 9CP 
Large 1GP (1)

Chest – Wooden 10CP 
Chest – Metal
Copper 1GP (1)
Silver 5+GP (2)
Gold 25GP (3)
Jeweled 50+GP (3)

Drum 5+GP (2)
Flask 3+CP 
Jar
Ceramic 1CP 
Glass 3CP 
Metal 9+CP 
Keg
Small 4CP 
Medium 6CP 
Large 8CP 
Pouch
Cloth 1CP 
Leather 3CP 
Woven 6CP 

Quiver 9+CP 
Rucksack
Cloth 9CP 
Leather 1SP 
Woven 2SP (1)
Skins
Oil 1SP 
Water 1SP 
Wine 1SP 
Travel Bag
Cloth 4CP 
Leather 8CP 
Woven 1SP 
Travel Pack
Cloth 8CP 
Leather 1SP 
Woven 2SP 

Furnishings

Armchair 1+GP (1)
Bedposts 2+GP (2)
Bench 3SP (1)
Blanket
Cloth 1SP 
Flannel 1GP (1)
Woven 2+GP (2)

Bookcase 1+GP (1)
Buffet 4+GP (2)
Carpet 1+GP (1)
Chair 1+SP 
Chandelier 10+GP (3)
Chest Drawers 1+GP (1)
Cloth
Flannel 2SP (1)
Linen 6CP 
Quilted 1SP 
Rag 3CP 
Silk 5+GP (2)
Woven 1GP 

Cushion 1+SP 
Desk 1+GP (1)
Drapes 2+SP (1)
Leather 5CP 
Mattress 1+SP 
Pillow 1+SP 
Quilt 6CP 
Rug 1+GP (1)
Sofa Couch 5+GP (2)
Table 1+SP 
Tapestry 10+GP (3)
Towels
Cloth 8CP 
Linen 1SP 
Woven 2SP (1)
Thread 4CP 
Wardrobe 15+GP (3)
Wick 2CP 

Adventuring Gear

Bandages
Small 3CP 
Medium 1SP 
Large 1GP (1)

Bedroll 6CP 
Flint and Steel 5CP 
Great-bread 8CP 
Harp 20+GP (3)
Pavilion 25+GP (3)
Pegs 2CP 
Pitons 7CP 
Rations
Trail 4CP 
Low 8CP 
Medium 1SP 
High 2SP (1)
Satchel
Cloth 9CP 
Leather 2SP (1)
Woven 1GP (1)
Stakes
Wooden 1CP 
Steel 1SP (1)
Iron 6CP 
Tarp
Small 1SP 
Medium 2SP (1)
Large 1GP (1)
Tent
Small 1SP 
Medium 1GP (1)
Large 5+GP (2)

Torch 2CP 
Walking Stick 5CP 
Waybread 1SP 
Weapon-belt 1SP 
Whistle 8CP 

Scribe Materials

Book
Parchment 6CP 
Papyrus 1SP 
Paper 2SP (1)

Ink 1GP (1)
Paint 1+GP (1)
Paintbrush 1SP 
Pen 5+CP 

Services

Clerk 2+SP (1)
Coach Service 6+CP 
Ferry Service 3+CP 
Guide 1+SP 
Healer 1+SP 
Messenger 1+SP 
Minstrel 2+SP (1)
Torchbearer 1+SP 
Teamster 1+SP 

Tools

Cartographer Kit 2+GP (2)
Chain
Silver 2SP (1)
Gold 2GP (2)
Iron 1SP 
Etch Kit 2+GP (2)
Glasswright’s tools 5GP (3)
Grindstone 2SP (1)
Jeweler’s tools 10+GP (3)
Ladder
Rope 2+SP 
Wooden 1GP (1)
Metal 2+GP (2)
Loom 3+GP (2)
Mining Pick 1SP 
Nails
Gold 5+GP (3)
Steel 2+GP (2)
Iron 1SP (1)
Rope
Short 5CP 
Medium 10CP 
Long 1+SP (1)
Smelt
Small 100+GP (3)
Medium 500+GP (4)
Large 1000+GP (5)

Spade Shovel 1SP 
Tongs 2SP (1)
Twine
Short 6CP 
Medium 1SP 
Long 2SP (1)

Illumination

Candle
Small 3CP 
Medium 8CP 
Large 1SP 

Candlestick 5+CP 
Lantern
Hooded 1SP 
Shuttered 2SP (1)
Directional 3SP (1)

Sconce 6+CP 

Miscellaneous Items

Ball
Small 2CP 
Medium 5CP 
Large 9CP 
Bell
Copper 1SP 
Silver 1GP (1)
Gold 10+GP (3)
Bowl
Ceramic 4CP 
Copper 1SP (1)
Silver 2GP (2)
Comb
Wood 3CP 
Silver 2SP (1)
Gold 1+GP (2)
Cauldron
Small 3SP (1)
Medium 2GP (2)
Large 5GP (3)
Chalice
Copper 2SP (1)
Silver 3GP (2)
Gold 5+GP (3)

Crucible 3SP (1)
Cup
Wooden 2CP 
Ceramic 4CP 
Silver 2SP (1)
Cutlery
Wooden 6CP 
Copper 2SP (1)
Silver 1+GP (2)
Furnace 2GP (2)
Goblet
Glass 1+SP (1)
Silver 1+GP (2)
Gold 5+GP (3)

Hammock 1SP 
Kettle 9CP 
Lock 1SP 
Lock-pick Kit 2SP (1)
Map 1SP+ (1)
Marbles 3CP 
Mat – Straw
Small 2CP 
Medium 6CP 
Large 10CP 
Mirror
Small 2SP (1)
Medium 1GP` (2)
Large 10+GP (3)

Needle 4CP 
Oil
Lamp 8CP 
Exotic 2SP (1)

Pipe 3+CP 
Plate
Wooden 3CP 
Ceramic 6CP 
Silver 2+SP (1)
Pole
Wood 8CP 
Steel 1GP (2)
Iron 2SP (1)
Stand
Small 2SP (1)
Medium 1GP (2)
Large 5+GP (3)

Whetstone 9CP 

Melee Weapons

Axe
Battle 2SP (1)
Great 1GP (2)
Blade
Broad 1GP (2)
Curved 3SP (1)
Great 2GP (2)
Long 3SP (1)
Short 2SP (1)

Club 1SP 
Dagger 1SP 
Flail
Basic 3SP (1)
War 2GP (2)

Fork, Battle 1SP 
Glaive 3GP (2)
Hammer
Basic 1SP 
War 1GP (2)
Knife
Curved 2SP (1)
Long 3SP (1)

Lance 4GP (2)
Mace
Basic 2SP (1)
Great 2GP (2)

Pick-axe 2SP (1)
Pike 3SP (1)
Pole-axe 2GP (2)
Sickle 2SP (1)
Spear
Great 2GP (2)
Long 3SP (1)
Short 2SP (1)

Staff 1SP 
Whip 2SP (1)

Ranged Weapons

Arrow
Basic 2CP 
Great 1SP 
War 6CP 
Bow
Long 1GP (2)
Short 2SP (1)
Steel 5+GP (3)

Knife, Throwing 1SP 
Javelin 2SP (1)
Sling 1SP 
Sling-stone 4CP 

Armour

Coif 2SP (1)
Corselet 4GP (2)
Cuirass 3GP (2)
Greaves 2SP (1)
Habergeon 5GP (3)
Hame 3SP (1)
Hauberk 10GP (3)
Mail
Chain 50GP (3)
Ring 25GP (3)
Scale 12GP (3)
Panoply 100GP (3)
Raiment 1GP (2)
Shield
Large 1GP (2)
Small 2SP (1)
Tower 5GP (3)

Wraps 1SP 

Sorry for such a long post!

[Wolfspider]

Just catching up on your excellent work on the game, Vgunn. I was wondering what kind of progress has been made lately.

Yes, I'm very eager to see the finished product. ;)

Keep up the excellent work!

[vgunn (guest)]

Just catching up on your excellent work on the game, Vgunn. I was wondering what kind of progress has been made lately.

Yes, I'm very eager to see the finished product. ;)

Keep up the excellent work!

Its slow right now. Some pressing issues (including moving to a new home) stand in the way. Hope to get back to finishing it up real soon.

[Denys]

What ever happened to this? The author states that he became busy.... but the forums on his site are pretty much dead and there's no new info there since June.

- Ian

[Balthazor]

Yo, vgunn, what news from the front? I keep checking for updates, but there still hasn't been one since June of '04. I hope this project isn't dead, as I've been looking forward to it for some time.