Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I've only ever seen this in Capes, but I like it quite a bit. Are there any other published games that do something similar? How about homebrews? I think conceptually it could work really well for a somewhat customisible class based system.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

What is it?

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

It drove me crazy.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Juhnaysaykwuh? :confused:

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

It drove me crazy. I found it slow and limiting.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Actually I'm interested too in finding out what kind of style of character gen this is...

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Capes Lite

I found the game very fidgety. YMMV.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I meant, what is click and lock? It sounds like an excruciatingly painful dance move.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Vide the link to Capes Lite. It's a way of creating PCs and NPCs (not that in Capes they're all that different), that requires all these fiddly paper bits to be cut out and connected.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I don't normally do this, but I agree with tetsujin on this one. That looks unnecessarily fiddly. And gimmicky too.

I pefer lifepaths like in Finesse over that style if I wanted something complicated for character gen.

Conan

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Having now read the demo PDF, I have to say that this seems extremely gimmicky and impractical.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Another vote for "gimmicky and impractical."

Then again, Capes is just about one of the worst games I've ever laid eyes on.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I concur.

For those curious, you can also look at the Click and Lock modules. It's linked off the Capes Lite PDF, but there it is in case you missed it or just want to cut through the middle man.

(Short version: the modules are two pieces, one representing a character archetype, like bricks or blasters, and the other representing some sort of psychological disadvantage. When you make your character, you choose one of each and literally stick 'em together.)

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Hmm. I thought I was the only one who didn't get why people thought it was so wonderful. What bugged you about it, in particular?

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

It doesn't feel like a roleplaying game. People like to accuse D&D of having too much dicerolling going on, but Capes takes the cake. For every little inane thing you seem to have to roll, even when it makes no sense whatsoever. I believe there was an example somewhere about somebody trying to insult a general and had to roll dice to see if she was allowed to call him a dick or something.

The game itself justifies this because it puts the emphasis on "roleplaying game", and then pats itself on the shoulder. I guess Nobilis is not an RPG then.

Secondly, it doesn't feel as a superhero RPG. It's Risk, except they replaced "I invade Venezuala" with "I impress my girlfriend."
At least when I play Mutants and Masterminds I really know how fast I can run. A superspeedster has a very... visceral kind of feel when you run at mach 2 on the highway. It's gratifying when you try to lift a tank and actually get away with it.
In Capes my superspeed is just a couple of dice to roll. I might as well have been strong or stretchy, it's not like it actually fucking mattered.

RPGs are mostly about wish fulfilment.
I want to play: Warlock, with his harem of chibi-succubi who sling around mind control spells!
I don't want to play: the one dude who rolls four dice just like everybody else.



And that is why I don't like Capes.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Cute. I might use it once.

I actually did a similar sort of thing with Once Upon A Time once. I had a deck of Aspects ("Long-Lost", "Ugly", "Can Fly") and a deck of Characters ("Witch", "Parent", "Giant") and used them for chargen of a freeform. Bam! You're an ugly witch! Or whatever.

I also use a slightly similar idea in SteveD20, but neither of these requires physical toys. The toys might be fun once, though. But it's a lot of work for one gimmick.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I loved Capes' character generation. I found the idea of matching the power archetype to a personality simple and made for varied and interesting (in a four-colour comics sense, at least) characters.
Before I knew where I was I'd made up three characters, a hero, his arch-villain dad and another villain who I ended up playing in our first two sessions.

Now the OT bit.

That a superhero game fails to emulate superhero RPGs is a strange criticism to make. Surely a superhero RPG should be trying to emulate Superhero comics? FWIW I think Capes does a pretty good job.

How often does a character in a comic perform to his exact writeup in the Handbook of the Marvel Universe/Who's Who/any given RPG? Not very often! Characters in comics are pretty much at the mercy of their writer, exceeding or falling short of their 'official' stats as the story requires. Abilites in Capes are rated by their importance to the character/story rather than how many tons of lard Kebab Lad can inhale.

I'm not going to say Capes is the best Superhero game evar, I love Golden Heroes, MSH and even DC Heroes! It just has a different approach. If you don't like it, that's OK :)

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I like the idea of matching up different pre-defined aspects to generate simple, two-dimensional, characters in hurry - what I don't like is having to cut out the equivelent of paper dolls to do it and the fact that without creating more of those paper dolls, you're limited to a pretty small, finite, number of options (and thus, a small, finite, number of unique characters). That's neither intuitive or fun. A more traditional point-buy system would provide more options with a lot less work.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

There is a Java click-and-lock program, but that doesn't really matter. The click and locks are explicitly not required, they are merely a way to make characters REALLY fast. If you want to just make your own, and most people do, then there are two ways described in the actual rules.

I'm kind of sad that this thread turned into another hate-on discussion about Capes. It's actually an excellent game, IMO, even if you don't think it's an RPG.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I don't think my point came across then.
Capes tries to emulate a superhero comic, but IMO at the expense of being an RPG. Too many nonsensical dice and too little funky powers.


That's why god gave us M&M.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I don't hate it, I'm just explaining to tetsujin why I think it sucks.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Nope. That's not very useful if you're not sitting behind your PC during a game session.

The demo doesn't make this clear and, based upon reading that, I wouldn't want to slap down any money for the full-blown RPG. If the demo poorly reflects the reality of the game itself, perhaps the publishers should consider revising it (the demo, not the game).

I guess my problem is that I fail how to see cutting out a bunch of paper templates and arbitrarily piecing them together is quicker or more practical than, say, arbitrarily picking a few traits off of pre-existing lists.

They really should make this clear in the demo, as the 'click and lock' system is pretty obviously a marketing gimmick that doesn't hold up as a practical character creation method when compared to other options already available (IMHO, of course).

I didn't say that I don't think Capes is an RPG (and I'm not sure anybody else has said that in this thread, either). All I've seen is a bunch of people saying that they dislike the game, and at least three of them who have given some pretty valid reasons as to why.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Well you don't have to cut out the bits. We just wrote them down :eek: .

Let's see if I can remember how it goes...

You match up your two bits of paper. Just counting the 15 power types and the 17 personalities, that's er, 255 combinations?
Someone who can count needs to help me with this. You now have 15 abilities. You have to dump three of them. That's another couple of thousand possibilities multiplied by the 255 combinations of character types. Then you number the remaining abilities from 1-4 (or 5). How many combinations is that, anybody?
Yes, it is finite but I wouldn't say there was a 'small number' of characters by any means. A point buy system might have more possibilities but IMO would involve a lot more work.

Don't forget you can chop and change and rename powers pretty much as you wish.

The thing I liked about Capes' chargen was that just looking at the click and lock pieces made my brainium start firing off character ideas. Characters who were just as well represented by 5 minute Capes character sheets as by 1+ hours worth of (insert point buy system here) character creation.
To me a cool character concept is everything and any game that can fire up my crippled little imagination can't be bad :D .

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Then why bother with them at all?

Again, I am prompted to ask - then why bother with the cutouts (or for that matter, any list of powers) at all?

Well, according to another poster on this thread, this isn't the case - that poster intimated that all powers in Capes are mechanically identical (and, again, the demo seems to confirm this). Is that correct?

I can respect that. I like a good character concept as well as the next guy, but I also like practical, sensible mechanics that (among other things) provide character individuality on a mechanical level. And, from both the demo and testimony on this thread (including your own), it seems as though Capes falls short in all three departments.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

For me it is a means of firing the imagination.
"How would 'this' power set go with 'this' personality? If I dropped this ability, what would the character be like?"
For those with more severe inspiration problems than myself they provide a fast way of making a character complete with powers and personality traits.

Pretty much, yes. Capes is the kind of game where if you roll well and can reasonably describe how your power does what you want it to do - it works. It's a 'make shit up' kind of game.

I would say that character individuality is something that comes out with roleplaying rather than the mechanics. For me that's a good thing.
It's an unusual game, not like any other SHRPG I've played. But I'd definitely recommend it.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

It's quick because people can PHYSICALLY chose rather than pick and write down. People tend to prefer picking a piece of pie off a plate of nine pieces then ordering one to be brought to them. The choice is easier in our head because the objects are physicaly there.

In fact, you can just deal them out too.

My problem with Capes is similar to a lot of narrative/story-sharing games. It starts well but then gets way too complex. The other problem is the problem with so many supers games, and it's been touched on already: it seems to work really well for massive scenes with multiple combatants with clearly defined goals - ie your classic superpowered slam-fight crime-stop. It doesn't seem like it would work all that well for Mick and Mindy discuss Mindy's rape. It would work, but it would be kind of complicated.

Here's what I'd do: Keep the Goal cards. Keep the one dice for each side. Remove the value on stats. Remove the reactions. Every stat you can use once per scene, or get a chip for using more than once. Limit stats to three physical abilities, three emotional. There seem way too many stats for each scene. But they refresh so you'll have people going "I haven't used Likes Peanut Butter yet....I bet the villain smells like peanut butter! I eat him!".

Which is fine, if that's your thang. But you could just leave that ability off until you get to the Which Sandwich Do I Eat scene. (PC: I'll play the ham! My goal is "Stay in the Fridge and Go Off!")

EDIT - forgot my other problem with this and games like it (In Spaaaace, too) - they require people to really WANT what the villains want. The whole reason I GM is to give the heroes what they want. I have a lot of trouble really caring about villains.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

But in Capes, there is no roleplaying without mechanics.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Folks, the overview demo is an overview. If you want to delve more into the detailed setup of the click and locks, go to the Flash Character Generator as well. This tool will let you play around with the combinations, maybe print out some characters, that sort of stuff.

As to not gaming at your computer, hey, neither do I. Instead I do prep-work. I come to the table with some sets of characters that I think would be useful for the session that's about to occur. Isn't that the sort of thing you're supposed to do when other players are counting on you to provide story?

For those who really, really need the ten second character creation at the table, I'm in production prototyping on folders of pre-cut, laminated cardstock, repositionable-sticky versions of each of the modules. Just peel 'em off, stick 'em on and go. Folks who have seen me run demoes at conventions have seen these: the colorform char-gen method. I'm just getting the die-cutting worked out, and then sets of them will go on sale.

So: clarification for the confused, a little bewilderment toward the angry, and coming features for the fans. Did I cover all the bases?

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I thought it was a pretty cool idea and I think it's awesome for groups coming into a new genre. The little pictures on each card and the evocative names of the powers would draw players in and get them playing ASAP. Okay so maybe the descriptive power of HERO is lost, but when you have chargen as quick and fast as what's described in that demo, you've got to give up a little something. My guess is that the designers were not aiming for HERO. Just as an off-hand guess I bet they were aiming for something like what they ended up with.

I am curious if any thought went into which column a certain power went into? The powers in the middle have to share point spreads with the powers in the middle of the other side of the character. So they get a little mixed in. Whereas the powers on the outside don't have to share point spreads with the other side of the character. How exactly did you decide which powers to put where?

Making the "click" parts L shaped instead of having those little fingers would go a *long* way towards making this easier to handle, physically. The thought of cutting out those little danglers makes me mad just thinking about it (was that redundant?). But if they were L shaped and fit together like two Tetris pieces, it's be all right.

For a pick-up game, or a con game, or a one-night game, or a game to introduce some players to each other, it might be fun to have these physical cards to do the chargen with. Sure if you are going to play a campaign you'll get real char sheets. These cards aren't (I wouldn't think) meant for long-term use.

If you can chop and mix up the powers, that doesn't make having them spelled out for you bad. When I check out at the grocery, I have two choices. Spend time looking for the shortest line, or get in the first line and browse the tabloids and "world news". Efficiency versus ease. Just because you choose efficiency and this game provides for ease doesn't make either of you anything other than different.

I'm no fan boy though. I need to hear more about this "everybody's powers are all the same, mechanically" issue. That for me would be a non-starter. My guess is that it's more like Tunnels and Trolls ability checks, where your stunts are open eneded but subject to GM arbitration. But let's hear from the designer.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Hey, the whole reason I GM is so I DON'T have to provide story.

But here's a real suggestion: to me, the snaplocks are around the wrong way. It should be Adjective Noun, eg

Fast-Talking...Teleporter

Homeless...Blaster

etc.

See?

Just an idea.
Steve

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

:( Yeah... I think, in retrospect, that you're probably right. You're not the first person to say that.

There are arguments on both sides (which I really don't want to rehash), but I've been slowly being convinced by your point of view for a few months now.

It's too late (or I'm too lazy) to change it, of course, but for what it's worth.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Yes, the degree of success your character enjoys is governed by the mechanics but how you describe what your character says and does within those limits is roleplaying, isn't it?

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

The far left column (outside of powers or skills) are straight abilities: They are meant to be things that you can do, without reference to what type of person you are. The far right are straight attitudes: Ways you can feel, without reference to what type of abilities you have. The middle column is more of a mix: it's your style, the way that you actually put your attitudes and abilities into specific action.

So "Super-strength" is a power, but "Massive Property Damage" is a style. The two go together, of course. But when you choose what value to give Massive Property Damage, you're saying something about the way that your character particularly uses his powers. I've seen people give it a 1 (or remove it from their sheet entirely) and be very careful, law-abiding sorts. I've seen people give it a 5, and gleefully rampage. It's just a question of style.

And that's the rough and very, very subjective criteria for which column things went into.

I don't know from Tunnels and Trolls. My take on it is that characters are the means by which the players influence the story. If John thinks that "Create Soap Bubbles" should get as much chance to influence the story as "Rearrange Planetary masses of matter at the subatomic level," and he narrates it in a way that entertains and engages us all, that's all I need to know.

You see this sort of dynamic all the time in actual superhero comics and shows. Superman's thunderous punches can't even dent Brainiac's automatons... but Batmans little batarang with an explosive charge blows one to shreds? You can't tell me that makes sense in terms of the payloads being delivered, but who cares? Batman's cool. He deserves to influence the story. Therefore his batarangs influence the story. 'nuff said.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Uh, so, to the OP:

What exactly is it that got you so excited about this gimmick, anyway? The tactile fiddly bits? The unfamiliar chrome over the familiar "one from column A and one from column B" approach? Er? I'm just pretty confused here.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I decided to have another go at it in this thread. Should you choose to continue the Capes tangent, feel free. I certainly got a bit of a surprise this morning when I checked the thread after I woke up. :)

Oh, and my two cents on Capes? I don't care for games in general, so Capes seems too gamey for my taste. If I get the chance though, I'd like to take part in a demo sometime (GenCon fell through for me) to find out for sure, and I certainly don't regret buying the book.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Well, then, not to be rude, but what are you doing on a game message board?

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

You confirmed that it's a gimmick, and now you're making it a gimmicky gimmick that costs more money. Maybe good business, but not good press for Capes.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I think SteveD's idea of using cards or something else is better. But the idea itself is great. Providing such a visual tool makes people want to play the game. Let's face it, getting a non-gamer into RPGs is not easy, and something like this, even if it's not much more than a gimmick, is a sound idea (actually, the idea of character creation using such a 'adjective-noun' combination approach itself is more than a gimmick). I'm not saying people are stupid or anything; I'm just saying that Big Friendly or Bright and Shiny Game Pieces would not be nearly as intimidating as a 300-page rulebook I'm not commenting on Capes itself, by the way, just the usefulness of such a method of generating characters.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Given the unusual tack that Capes takes, I don't think it's a good tool for getting non-gamers into RPGs anyway...especially since Capes is only debateably an RPG in the first place. The point about componets is well taken - but again, a game shouldn't need gimmicks/widgets to sell itself or be playable.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Word. It would be a very poor choice to show what "rpgs are like." It's not a conventional rpg, and it's not a conventional boardgame. It's more like an overly-complex version of Once Upon a Time.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Jim, you seem to have gotten a wrong-headed impression. The game is totally playable without the click and lock modules. They're a useful tool that can give people inspiration, not a pre-requisite of playing the game.

My buddy Sydney essentially never uses them. When he plays with us he just writes up characters by picking and organizing traits that make sense for him (much like Heroquest, I gather). It all works out the same, it just relies on him to think a bit more, but he seems to enjoy that.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

As I said, I've only read the demo, but that's exactly the same impression that it left me with. The demo really did more to unsell me on the game proper than interest me in it, which is why I suggested that it be revised. OTOH, it seems as though it might be attracting people who dig on gimmicks in droves, so it is possible that I simply fall outside of the target audience for the game.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

It's not supposed to sell you on the game. It's supposed to give you the information to judge whether you want the game or not. You don't have the right groove for Capes. You found that out. The demo has done its job.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

You're kidding, right? "To be playable," no, but gimmicks and widgets sell things all the time.

I mean, that's all pretty art on the cover and inside are, right? They certainly don't have a direct influence on gameplay - but they sure as heck affect the sales of the game. Removeable maps? Photocopiable paper miniatures, ala Savage Worlds' books? The CD with the character generator included with the D&D Player's Handbook? Call of Cthulu's player handouts that are printed to look like old newspaper clippings or handwritten scrawls?

Show of hands: how many people here have bought an unusual set of dice just because they liked the looks of them? Yeah, I thought of a few of you had.

Gimmicks aren't necessary to play a game, but anything that ups the "hey, here's a neat idea" quotient probably won't hurt sales (assuming the gimmick doesn't cost a lot to produce in the first place).

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I guess I fall outside the boundaries of the intended target audience.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

A wrong impression indeed, then - I've only looked at the demo, and while the concepts're interesting, I don't think Capes really fits well with my playstyle. Forgive if I'm using the terminology incorrectly, but it seems a little too Gamist for a Narrativist-style RPG.

Thought I'd make that clear, before an anti-Capes flamewar pops up. It's obvious that you put a lot of work and a lot of thought into Capes, Tony. It's one of the products I like to hold up when people start bitching about how RPGs are priced (or similar idiocy) and say 'This is a labor of love. That's why.'

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

See my earlier post - increased marketability is fine, but it doesn't necessarily make a good game. I'm not bagging on Capes here (and again apologies if I gave that impression), but the template stuff is (as others have stated) too...fiddly for me. Capes is an excellent game, I'm not sure that it's really an RPG, and I don't think I'd enjoy playing it with my group.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Umm, 'cause it's a RolePlaying game message board, and RPGs aren't just games, unlike Monopoly or Settlers of Catan, which I have zero interest in.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

And yet, they aren't just roleplaying either. It's a quirky little synergy, isn't it?

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Yup. I just look at it more as RPg rather than rpG, RPG or rpg. Different strokes etc.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

I just think of them as arpijeez.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

Redforce:
Actually, after looking at the demo, the click'n'lock chargen was what I liked most about the game. Decidely theft worthy. The game itself was interesting, but not my particular cup'o'tea.

Re: Click-and-Lock Chargen?
 

See, that's what I though too. Check out my other click and lock thread, which I started to go into more depth on what I was originally getting at.