Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Why would you think a "live and let live" attitude is characteristic of most people in real life? Most of the people I know are deeply, passionately concerned about things THAT DO NOT CONCERN THEM AND ARE NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS once it's brought to their attention. I know a lot more crusaders than bystanders.
I also understand that gods would be more concerned with their Paladins, but I don't buy that they'd be dismissive of everyone else and not concerned about them upholding their alignment and being the best (or worst) person they could be. I think all your Paladin comments should hold equally true for all characters.
I didn't find the Eladrin an elegant way of doing anything but offering 2 types of elves in the same book and cutting out other core races in favor of them.
And the "roles" are from a strictly tactical-strategic-combat point of view, which is why I hated 4E. Because you're not talking about "roles" as in "roleplaying" the "roles" is filling out combat and tactical positions.
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I think that most people in real life are "unaligned" rather than "good" in the D&D sense because that is how I observe most people behaving. Someone can be decent, generous, and caring, yet still be unaligned. Giving to charities, doing volunteer work in one's home city, working for a charity, joining in protest marches, even spontaneously intervening in a witnessed crime are not necessarily sufficient to make one "good." To be "good," one must regularly take considerable risks or make substantial sacrifices. A firefighter, a storm-chaser, and a Peace Corps volunteer are all excellent modern candidates for "good" status because they risk their lives or make major personal sacrifices to help others. But not necessarily--maybe the Peace Corps volunteer was just hoping to see exotic places or thought it would look good on a resume.
I've known plenty of people who do volunteer work of various stripes, but I would consider very few of them to be crusaders. If most of the people you know are crusaders, then your experience is exceptional. I'm certain that my experience is typical because, if most people were crusaders going to considerable trouble to improve the world, the world would be a far better place than it is.
I believe that whether gods are regularly interested in the lives and doings of low-level adventurers is something best decided on a per-campaign basis. BUT, what you or I think about the matter is neither here nor there. The issue is whether Travire has described the 4e PHB accurately in his review. As it happens, divine classes are singled out for special attention in the PHB. The paladin and the cleric are initiated by religious orders, and the book makes it clear that said orders may take notice and intervene should these classes stray from religious norms. Moreover, the paladin has the more rigid alignment restrictions (they must commit to deity's alignment, while the cleric only need a compatible alignment). Other classes in the PHB are not required to worship any gods. You can run/play the game any way you like, but my comments were based on what the PHB says.
I consider "core races" to be humans, dwarves, elves, and maybe halflings. Anything beyond that is edition-specific. I don't mind that each edition has revisited what qualifies as "core."
Yes, absolutely, the "roles" are only about what the class is naturally good at IN COMBAT. Because for the majority of groups, D&D (any edition) contains an element of COMBAT, and it is important to know how well your character will do IN COMBAT. Out of combat, there's no reason for all sword-swingers, archers, priests, or magic-users to have similar roleplaying "roles." Do you want D&D to provide you with one class for a sword-swinging warrior who's grim and silent and tends to terrify people on the rare occasions he talks, and a completely different class for the one who's the life of the party and always seems to have a handy connection with the right guard or barkeep? That's the only way I can interpret your comment about "roles." Roleplaying is for me to do, not the game.
shortforbob