Post originally by John Nephew at 2003-05-26 20:03:08
Converted from Phorums BB System

> This is an absurdly artificial
> assumption. It is theoretically
> impossible to block communication.

It's just to simplify the example. In reality, communication is nuanced and complex, and more than verbal. People don't always say what they mean. In fact, people often provide reinforcement that contradicts what they say with words.

I may tell you I'm beating you because you're not washing my car, when I'm really beating you because I don't like people of your ethnic group to walk down my street. Maybe if you do wash my car, I'll beat you and tell you another reason -- this time you failed to repaint my house.

Ultimately, reward and punishment communicate more clearly than any words, and reward that quickly follows desired behavior has been experimentally demonstrated to be the best teacher.

> "Hey, wash my car and I'll give you a
> cookie."
> "In advance?"
> "Sure."

Sounds to me like your positive reinforcement is for promises to wash cars, not actual car-washing. After all, I can take the cookie and walk away.

> I don't know where your philosophers
> are getting their information, but in the
> real world crime does pay,

Exactly -- crime pays immediately and that is positive reinforcement (steal the crack cocaine, smoke it, get high); punishment not only is punishment (and thus is a less effective teacher), but it often is delayed, further muting and diffusing its effect.

Are you punished for doing wrong, or for being caught, or for not being rich enough to have a top lawyer, or for not being a member of a privileged social group? Why should you believe what they say, when someone who did the same crime gets off the hook?