Post originally by Sérgio Mascarenhas at 2003-08-06 06:23:33
Converted from Phorums BB System

"Dexterity as an english language word only applies to manipulating things with one's hands"

Now, now, Simon, you know better than this. You perfectly know that we are speaking about rpgs here, not about any general issue. You know all too well that Dexterity has a peculiar meaning in rpgs, you know that this word has been defined "in such a way that it also included what we might call agility". This is the meaning of Dex in rpgs from the start. It is there, as you know, in Original D&D, T&T, RQ and other BRP games, etc. It has been there for the last 30 years to a point that games that want to depart from the standard have to point out that Dex mens what it means in the english language, and not what it means in rpgs.

Btw, SWtRPG bows to the classics in this respect. It has only Dex.

"Strength is about muscle power"

So is Dex given that agility is also about muscle power and agility is subsumed under Dex. Dex (agility) is no less about muscle power than strengh. How are we to distinguish them in rpgs? The classical answer has always been the same: Dex (agility) means to move oneself; strengh means to move objects.

"Sergio appears to be applying his own preffered definitions"

Am I? As I just said, I was using the standard definitions of STR and DEX in rpgs, I was not using my own definitions.

"rather than analysing the internal consistency of the game on it's own terms"

How can you tell this if you don't know the game? Because I din't develop the concepts of Str and Dex as presented in SWtRPG? Didn't occur to you that I didn't do it because these were not innovative? Because these were similar to those in run-of-the-mill rpgs?

"I can't realy comment on this particular game because I don't know how these attributes are defined by it"

I'll get back at this in a momment.

"however the fact that both swimming and jumping were both assigned to Strength indicates that it is at least being consistent"

Consistent in your preferred terms, those that you picked from your dictionnary. But as I said above, these are not the usual terms in rpgs. According to these it is not consistent.

Now, let's look at SWtRPG definitions (p.25):
"STR: This measures a PC's physical strengh. It indicates how much a PC can lift and carry, and determine modifiers for damage on weapons and brawling attacks."
"DEX: This measures a PC's agility and handiness in a given area. It measures quickness and ease of physical activity."

These are standard definitions of STR and DEX. They could have been taken from RQ or ODD. That's why I didn't feel compelled to include them in the review (it's a long review already, it would become gigantic if I kept quoting things from the book).

Btw, let's look at the STR and DEX skills present in SWtRPG:
STR: Climbing, Damage brawl, Damage melee, Damage wrestle, Endurance, Jumping, Lifting, Swimming.
DEX: Acrobatics, Bow, Brawling, Crossbow, Dodge, Incapacitate, Martial Arts, Melee, Pick locks, Running, Wrestling.

We have STR combat skills that determine damage. And we have DEX combat skills that determine if the character is successful in his attacks. The former correspond to damage mods in BRP, for instance. This is acceptable, even if I would ratter not treat the STR combat skills as skills.

On the other hand, we have Climbing, Jumping and Swimming as STR skills, and Acrobatics, Dodge and Running as DEX skills. I think it is obvious that these should be in the same category and that, according to the classical definition of the two attributes that is accepted by SWtRPG, they should all be DEX skills.

So, it is not just a question of me trying to enforce my concepts as if they should be the canon in rpgs. My criticism was based on attribute concepts advanced by the game and the fact that these are standard fare. I stand by my words.

Sergio