Post originally by Ezekiel Black at 2004-04-14 23:56:26
Converted from Phorums BB System

OK, sorry right off the bat for this "thread crapping" Buzz, but you must admit that proditor ASKED for it. I wasn't even watching the board anymore, a friend of mine told me that I was called out again, so I answered again. I don't plan on staying long. Without further ado, here's more "threadcrap" If you find such things distasteful, please just hit the back button on your browser now (that's everybody but proditor, who again, ASKED for me to respond)

proditor wrote:
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I'm trying to decide at this point if it is even worth it to point out the glaring misconceptions in EB's post. What the heck, I'm bored. The below paraphrased.

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I was long gone. And my point was made. What have you got for me now?
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"Well, you get a COMPLETE game for 40 bucks these days, Champions is 60"

And you were the one spouting of about having DM's that aren't handicapped by a lack of creativity and brain power...So...I spend 40. Your number, your price. I get a rules SYSTEM. It allows me to make ANY GAME OR SETTING I WANT. Not just one, anything I can think of. Of course if I am strapped for cash I can do just about the same thing for 10 bucks...

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So, you're stating that having a system and setting for $40 is worse off than having just a system for $40? Did I regret to mention that the vanilla rules for the system were free on the internet? No, I just checked, I didn't. So you just payed $40 for a system. I essentially payed $40 for a system and setting. I don't see where you're gaming company isn't ripping you off. Oh, I did fail to state that the setting in question on my side is universal as well? No, I believe the word "vanilla" would have made that point obvious. Where to go?
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Yeah, you must be right...

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Thank you for agreeing. Oh, that was sarcasm. Sorry, my mistake. Continue please...
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I reiterate. You do not understand how HERO works. That's fine. You don't need to know how any game works to get through life after all. But when you start flinging around accusations and assertations that are at best glaringly incorrect...well...

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Actually, I just said that I liked a system with my setting, and a setting with my system. That isn't glaringly incorrect, especially since you just said your game HERO doesn't have a setting to speak of in it's pages. So you just said I was throwing around incorrect accusations where earlier you just confirmed that my accusations were the truth. Where to go?
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"For semantics sake, let's just say that your 25+ year DM doesn't have a brain in his head and needs both the DMG and the MM to play 3E. Also, he's completely unimaginative and can't think of one town name, so he buys the full version of Greyhawk (he could get the Gazeteer for $10, BTW, and my 5+ year DM has read so many FR books that he needs no campaign setting book)"

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Ah, yes, I did mess up the beginning of this quote. Ever think of something, type, then think while typing and mess up the picture. That's what happened at the beginning. Plus I was a little peeved. You can't blame me, it's the reason your earlier post was incoherent.
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Okay, right back at ya. Let's say I actually want to use the use for environmental effects, siege warfare (light though that is) castle construction, PRC's, long term adventuring, the guide to monetary levels for PC's based on their character level...oh wait...the rest of those RULES are in the DMG. Yes, sure I could make them up, but, and here's my point which you continue to willfully ignore...YOU ARE NOT PLAYING D&D. You are playing a hybrid. That's fine, knock yourself out. Oh, and since the novels for FR have been alternately included or ignored in the actual play material...again, another specious arguement, but why let the facts get in the way, right?

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Specious? Was that word on your post-it style calendar today? It was on mine. Actually, my arguement had absolutely nothing to do with D&D at this point, and we really could go round and round as far as what a "complete" game is. I really no longer have the patience for it, because I still don't really like D&D in it's newest incarnation. Actually, the D&D arguement came up due to someone else's post claiming that it didn't contain a setting, but I suppose that we haven't gone too far off topic. Actually, yes we have. So, like so many of you are fond of doing, I'm not even going to respect this with an answer.
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(read definition of complete game above)

No, that's your definition. Please don't presume to speak for anyone else. Mine is a working and inclusive rules set. See, I do have enough originality to come up with my own flavor material and since I have yet to use any setting product without altering it significantly...well, your definition is meaningless to me.

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Fair enough. A wise man once said

"But, as always, these opinions are mine alone, and if you really find value in a book, then who am I to tell you otherwise."

And that was me, on my second post. I also said:

"setting+rules=complete game (and that's my definition, and you'd know that if you were paying attention)"

on my last post speaking with you. I just said "(read definition of complete game above)" Instead of "(read MY definit..." to save space, this quote you listed was directly pointing to the above quote. That and I figured everyone knew that all posts are automatically considered opinions of the people who wrote them, because no one is controlled by the government or aliens just yet (at least, no one we know of and can say for certain). Little deja vu with that "paying attention" part?
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Though let's hit the numbers again. You say I get a barebones theme/setting and some of the rules for D&D for 20 bucks. Most other games give you full rules and a more detailed single use setting for 40-50. Sidekick gives you just the full rules set for 10. We done yet?

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Uh, sure. I was done like 10 posts back on this thread, that's why I said "..I'm done now. I won't be back simply for the fact that too much web space was wasted in the crafting of this goofy arguement, and I don't want it to get out of hand with the pointless personal insults."

P.S. Still not paying attention to D&D based arguements for reasons stated above. If you're having trouble remembering, just scroll up.
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"I just recently purchased a full game in ONE book, and it costed 35.95. 464 pages. Full and completely detailed setting."

Bully for you. I purchased a rules system for 40 and I got no less than 7 games out it because I don't give a fig about someone else's attmept at creative writing.

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I like to see their "attempts" what with the fact they have "degrees" with "Yes, this guy decided to make his life profession and sole passion writing" written in the small print. And I read the back cover to see if I thought the setting was worth "a fig" and I believe it was worth a bushel. Sorry, but I think that the universal setting I got out of it is worth the same as yours, anyway. Unless you're a writer by trade, I think my made up settings are on par with yours. And I've already adapted the (again, universal) system from that game to another setting quite nicely. I think in 6 or so more shots, I'll be one up on you. The only difference is time and the amount of work the writer did for me in completing one setting right off the bat. And I bet a shiny nickel that his setting kicks any 3 of your's asses in the long run. No offense, but it is what he wants to do with his life, and I wouldn't call myself a better butcher than Mr Jenkins, our local butcher.
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Yes, I took a shot at you about the 8 pages of rules. There is a reason for that. There is no way in creation you can adequately cover all of the aspects of a roleplaying scenario in 8 pages.

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Again, correct sir, but you fail to realize two things: A)I'm just a guy with a computer, and didn't even intend to go on par with gaming companies and B) (this is getting frustrating, because this is the third time I've had to say this) It was a rules lite setting. The second time I said it in all caps, I thought that might get your attention. I don't do it often because I realize that all the strength of my pinky on the shift key will not make people read what I've got to say. So great, we have now figured out that my example back on post 6 was necessary at the time to both demean systems in general and show how much text a vanilla system really takes up. I also mentioned it was rules lite on that page. It doesn't take a "Where's Waldo" master to find it either.
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In closing. Elsethread you stated that 100% of the reason people by games is setting. Well, you said when called out you step up to the plate. Prove it. Show me some statistic gathered in a verifable and quantifiable manner that supports this claim.

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Oh NO! I'll never be able to prove that!

D20:
Star Wars
Call of Cthulu
Wheel of Time
Dungeons and Dragons
Judge Dredd
Star Gate
Far Scape
Gamma World
Traveller
Modern

Unisystem:
All Flesh Must Be Eaten
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Angel
Witchcraft
Army of Darkness

Why are these games bought, is it for the two systems listed? Does someone pick up Call of Cthulu wanting the D20 system, or to be scared, Lovecraftian style? Do you think Star Wars D20 has had more selling power being D20, or being Star Wars?

And do you honestly think there are as many World Building gamers out there as there are Playing gamers. Every WB is a Player, but not all Players are WB. You have to concede the fact that the defining amount of gamers are Players first, GMs, WBs, and RW (rules writers, me) second.

If I haven't made my point, someone else let proditor know what's going on. As for me, I am leaving this thread and I'm not coming back. Be happy Buzz, no one will "troll" this forum named EB anymore. Go in peace proditor, because you had no reason to be angry in the first place. As far as that other guy, I don't know. I guess you still have one combatant. I wish you all -2 to your THAC0 or +2 BAB, depending on if you're old skewl or new scool.

P.S. You used the wrong "by" above. It should have been "buy" for that definition. I give you a check minus for the error. But I'll give you extra credit for "specious", that brings you up to a check. Congratulations, you're adequate!