Post originally by camazotz at 2004-07-11 03:01:16
Converted from Phorums BB System

Justin Bacon wrote:
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And, with the exception of Nyberg, that is true of anyone who is a fan of
Howard's work. de Camp and Carter rewrote, expurgated, altered, and
deliberately kept Howard's original work out of print. What type of
contribution is that, exactly?

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Which is odd, since I am a fan of Howard's work, but apparently seem able to appreciate other authors' efforts as well. And oddly, I rarely hear of any purist speaking fondly of Nyberg, either.


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JB:
Why on earth would you wonder if that could happen? Sure, you can whip out your
personal forgotten favorites, but there are dozens of authors from the 1930s
whose works continue to be recognized and published today without the need for
pastiche sequels.

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Sure, no problem. It is entirely possible that Howard would have survived, which explains why it is so easy to find his non-Conan work on the shelves. Recently there's been a revivification of Howard, which is great, but I think you're point is well made that no one can safely predict that Howard's merit as an author wouldnt have carried him forth. Nonetheless, very few of his contemporaries outside of Lovecraft are readily found in bookstores these days. But I'm not going to argue against the idea that his work could have survived on its own; we're all in agreement that he was an excellent author.

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JB:
I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Not *one* of Howard's Conan
stories is related as a "bar-tale yarn told by a grizzled veteran".

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I'll have to look that up, but on more than one occasion in forewards and discussions on Howard's life (including the most recent anthology, which is 100% Howard original), references to Howard's own description of his works and his inspiration for Conan were given as such an analogy, one of the old veteran or pro who you might meet in a relaxed tavern, telling you his stories. It was the foudnation on which Howard explained the chronology, or lack thereof, of his tales and the order he wrote them, in fact. His idea was that this character, who sprang whole-cloth one day, a sort of fully-realized character who some have suggested was a sort of literary alter ego to himself, might be seen as the sort of tale-teller who jumps back and forth from one tale to the next, never telling you the exact order of events, but definitely getting to all the fun parts of his wild life.
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JB:
In other words, not a single pastiche sequel or prequel has been set in the
universe of Middle Earth. And yet Tolkien's work survives and thrives.
Here's the bare and simple truth: L. Sprague de Camp kept Howard's Conan
stories, in ANY form, out of print for nearly fifteen years because publishers
weren't interested in publishing de Camp's pastiches and de Camp wouldn't allow
Howard's original stories to be published without his pastiches.
How the hell did keeping Howard's stories OUT OF PRINT serve to keep them in
circulation? Plug your brain in. You're spouting nonsense.
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Well, I guess I'll have to look more closely in to that; I've never read anything that accused de Camp until now of intentionally snuffing Howard's tales unless his own additions came along with them, but I shall look in to it; quite likely that professional courtesy among the many editors and compilers who have written various forewards didn't want to mention such a detail out of professional courtesy, or maybe there's a different interpretation, I shall have to see.
De Camp definitely used the Conan tales to aid his own development as an author, but I ave always enjoyed hiw works, Conan and non, so I guess that, in spite of owning a complete collection of Howard's works as well as all of de Camp's (pastiche and non), Carter's, and, hell, all of the pastiches to date, that I am not a fan of Howard by the Justin Bacon definition. Shocking, really! So glad you came along to inform me that my years of interest, my very ownership of this genre and hobby, were all based on a cruel lie.
Perhaps, just perhaps, it is possible that one can enjoy MORE than one author's works without having to dislike others who have tried to follow in his footsteps? And not be invalidated as a fan as a result? Or do I need to get on thebandwagon and start practicing snobbish literary elitism, too? At this point, even if I decided to hate de Camp for some perceievd crime against Howard's writings 50 years ago, I still can't help but point out that this is all kind of a pompous atitude to take given the fact that it's all effectively literary history, and fascinating stuff to talk about, but still doesn't change the fact that all of the stories we're talking about read as good yarns, and thank goodness in 2004 we can read both the pure Howard tales and the pastiche as we wish, or ignore it to our taste. Hell, I'm just glad Conan and Howard remain so popular and inspiring to people today.
Quick note about Tolkien: pastiche does not necessarily constitute using the same characters verbatim; it is the attempt to emulate the style and context of the author. Which goes on regularly in fantasy fiction, and in gaming products, with startling persistence. But it's what people like, so the resonance of Tolkien is obviously persistant throughout fantasy fiction. Every time you read about a tale of elves, dwarves, orcs, and cute and niave little beings going off on great quests: that's Tolkien pastiche. I'm not knocking all of that, though. Joseph Campbell pointed out in The Hero With a Thousand Faces that there are really only about four mythic archetypes in heroic storytelling, and the countless tales told since are all essentially variations on these themes.
My point on Tolkien is that, without pastiche and inspiration from his work, the fantasy shelves would be a lot thinner in your local book store. Tolkien's books are a different beast from Howard's; they inspired people to write further tales of fantasy like him often in settings remarkably like Middle Earth, but no one seems to have felt the need to do fan fic of his characters. Howard's works, being far too brief due to his short career as an author, have always left people wishing there were more Howard out there, I suspect, and thus the pastiches which sought to continue the very specific lives and tales of different characters. I think it is a tribute to Howard's strength as a tale teller that his literary creation has continued to live well beyond it's creator's years, in so many forms, be they good or bad (and I've no disagreement with you that there's bad pastiche of Conan out there: I just don't agree on which authors).

Whew! Thanks for the lively debate. In advance of any further scathing responses: I agree with your right to disagree with me, please be aware that I think it's just fine if you would rather the pure Howard were the only work of Conan, and that all others we're left to obscurity; and I agree that Tolkien is better off for not having a direct continuation of his tales (but disagree with the notion that he hasn't been pastiched' into cliche). I'm fine with you thinking you are absolutely write and I am absolutely wrong, the feeling is mutual.
;-)