Post originally by Roy Morgan at 2004-10-06 19:10:44
Converted from Phorums BB System

"I think the big thing is that there really aren't any hard-to-use weapons listed at all in nWoD - at least the kind we have been talking about. The difficulty in using a handgun and a shotgun is negligible. The only oddity I saw from the list you gave is the rifle."

Mostly true in firearms. Range is where the combat system for WoD starts to show holes.

"The interesting trend I see in nWoD is the general reduction in damage, which would seem to support the idea that skill is more important than weapon. To me, at least."

Actually, I think it has more to do with the fact that Defense doesn't apply against firearms. Using the same logic as the Melee combat system, the firearms rules would result in a lot of dead characters very quickly, unless armor came into play.

"The range in old WoD (using your Vamp3rd chart) is 3 to 8, whereas the new has 2 to 5. Almost a halving of the range. Combined with a higher TN, that would seem to me to imply that specific weapons are less important than skill, at least compared to old WoD, when it comes to damage."

Well, the higher difficulty is a systemwide change, to compensate for the fact that there are now no defensive rolls in combat (though there are a few opposed rolls in other tasks). Everything now hinges on your Defense. Which doesn't come into play when firearms are unlimbered at farther away than a few meters.

As for skill being more important, normally I wouldn't argue the point. That's the trouble, though. The way weapons are handled in this game invites criticism. It's amazing how much difference choice of weapons can make. A few extra dice can be the difference between a gaping wound and a scratch.

Realistically, every weapon has its own difficulties in use, mostly concerning weight, balance, length, and ability to do damage. This translates into speed, reach, ease of use or accuracy, and, again, damage.

Trouble is, only one of the above is considered when assembling the 'holistic' combat roll in this game for weapons, and that's Damage. The rest are left out entirely. And when that roll is a combination to-hit and damage roll, which is how the mechanics pan out in use, things get... crazy.

Consider the following:

AverageMan (all attributes 2, combat skills 2) picks up a machete (Damage 2). By the Storyteller system rules from Vamp Revised, he'd roll 4 dice to hit, and if he hit, he'd roll 4 dice for damage (2 STR + 2 Damage), plus one die for any EXTRA successes to hit (anywhere from 0-3 dice). In WoD, he rolls 6 dice (2 STR + 2 Skill + 2 Damage) if he's swinging at a stationary target, less if he's swinging at something or someone capable of defending itself (subtracting Defense + Armor).

Say AverageMan gets tired of whacking fence posts and decides to try his luck with people. He picks the worst possible target, a flambuoyant gentleman who turns out to be Inigo Montoya (4 Dexterity at least, with the Fighting Finesse talent, 3 Strength, 5 Skill, wielding his signature Six-Finger Sword, a masterfully-crafted fencing longsword that we'll consider a rapier for purposes of this example, 2 Damage). In the Storyteller System, Inigo would be rolling 9 dice to hit, and probably an extra die to reflect the amazing balance and craftmanship of his weapon, and would roll 5 dice for damage, with possibly more for extra successes on his to-hit roll (0-8, though probably in the range of 4-5 against such a pitiful opponent). In the WoD system, Inigo would roll 9 dice (4 Dex + 5 Skill + 2 Damage - 2 AverageMan's Defense, no modifiers for the quality of the Six-Finger Sword; that's the logic in this system). Rightfully, AverageMan is going to get his butt handed to him in a sack in either system.

Sounds okay so far, right? Okay, here's where things get interesting.

When AverageMan gets out of the hospital, he buys a greataxe and goes out to get revenge on Inigo (maybe that Intelligence should be BELOW average). In the Storyteller System, he's still rolling 4 dice to hit. Only his damage has gone up. With Inigo's ability, AverageMan will be back in the hospital in very short order.

In the WoD system, however, his combat pool would have jumped to 9 dice (2 Str + 2 skill + 5 Damage, to say nothing of the 9 Again rule on rolling!)! Even with Inigo's 4 Defense, AverageMan's chances just got a lot better because he picked up a weapon that does more damage, even if it's slower and heavier than Inigo's Six-Finger Sword (remember, no adjustments for ease of use or speed). For AverageMan, the odds just got a lot more even. And what has he done? Just picked up a big, heavy weapon with a whopping damage capacity. Clearly AverageMan read the WoD book before going out to avenge himself against Inigo.

Now comes the real problem for GMs: your players will be reading the WoD book, too, and drawing the same conclusions AverageMan did. Sure, most WoD players aren't there for the munchkining, but once in a while you'll get a rules lawyer just looking for holes to exploit in any game. Here's his greatest opportunity: right in the rules that stand the best chance of getting used frequently.

Gilbe, it's up to you how you play. It's no skin off my schnoz either way. BUT THIS BEARS CONSIDERING. This 'stylistic difference' can turn into a headache in a big hurry. I've seen this sort of one-roll wonder before, when it came to combat systems. They ALWAYS had the same problem.

I'm not here to bash the system, though I'm hoping it does get some deserved revision. I'm here to make sure people know about this problem, and give it the attention it deserves.