Post originally by Ezekiel Black at 2005-02-18 19:03:54
Converted from Phorums BB System
Here we go:
1(part A, the ALPHA, Biggest Mistake): It only costs 25 XP to get from rank 4 to 5 in a skill. See last paragraph on page 35 of WoD for proof of this using XP on a Trait. I would figure that Skills are the same under this rule (as the same rule for 2x cost of the illusive rank 5 is used for Traits and Skills). It costs twice to buy with starting allotment of points (5/4/3, 11/7/4), XP is handled normally (4-5 is one dot, and costs 15 XP).
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Find the right tree to bark up. We were discussing the SCALE of attributes, not the starting points.
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Actually, I was discussing the starting points vs. the scale of the system. I was barking up the right tree, you just decided not to see that particular tree. It's a great way to not answer a question or give recognition to an issue, BTW.
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Point: You can now see why I think starting characters in this game are pathetic, considering how much harder it is to succeed at anything in this game, even on unresisted rolls. Which is fine if you're a power-tripping GM, but rotten if you're a player.
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I'm sorry, I fail to see how this will help the GM any more than the players, unless the GM is not scaling the opponents correctly.
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Which is fine for Victim Horror, but not a lot of help if you want characters to survive for a little while.
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Actually, characters will survive just fine if they don't try to kill everything in sight. They are monsters, they are in a society, and the game (VtR) favors social conflict over physical conflict.
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Now we get into something that addresses the perception of the scale of attributes. And you’re right, the SCALE itself doesn’t change. I believe I said something about that, remember?
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The scale does change, it just lies to itself and says it doesn't
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In practice, it is indeed harder to get higher attributes. It’s also MUCH easier to fail at even easy actions, since successes are so much harder to get than in the old system. And you have to get them now with fewer dice on harder actions. Yes, one success will grant you victory, but often you can’t even get that. Playtesting was downright embarrassing sometimes. It also left my old VtM group (of some eight or so years) insisting we go back to the old game, or at least that we start working on fixing this one. The latter won out.
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Well, I'm glad the latter won out. I never said that combat was better in nWoD, I said it was quicker. It's just as busted as oWoD, IMO, and I'm trying to fix it, too. The setting kicks the living @!#$ out of oWoD, though.
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That’s what I would call impossible, if characters in the old system were created strictly according to the 7/5/3 attributes, 13/9/5 abilities (skills), 3 disciplines, 15 Freebie Points VtM chargen system.
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22 Freebies due to Flaws.
But I did overcalculate due to anger.
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Here’s some math. Costs for Exp for skill levels are, from 1-5, 3-6-9-12-30 (remember, the fifth dot costs the same as spending two dots for skills in chargen). And you have to buy each level separately, so it comes out as 3-9-18-30-60, if you start from scratch and go to five. Even just buying that all-important fourth level when you’ve bought three with your skill pool from chargen is really expensive. Costs for using the skill pool? 1-1-1-1-2! Totaling 1-2-3-4-6! Easy min-max for this junker of a chargen system? BUY ALL YOUR HIGHER SKILLS WITH THE SKILL POOL, THEN THE LOWER ONES WITH EXPERIENCE POINTS!! How’d that get by you?!
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How did page 35 of WoD get by you? XP cost is the same as all other times when going from 4-5. So that's 3-6-9-12-15, or 3-9-18-30-45 to buy rank five from nada.
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Right. And if they were a bit more conservative and didn’t max out those few skills? They could end up having 1 in nearly half the skill list just from Exp-bought skills, and still be decent at seven or eight skills. And they’d avoid those really nasty unskilled penalties, particularly if they dropped most of those 1s into Mental Skills.
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Alright, I used to be a min-maxer and found that we don't have any brains when we make characters. We think "5 is max, then I be 5!". If we must drop it from 5 to 4, we can still argue: 11(3 skills, 2 at 4, 1 at 3)/7(2 skills, 1 at 4, 1 at 3)/4(one skill at 4). This is still 6 skills, 4 at 4 and 2 at 3. With the 11 1 rank XP bought, we still are sitting with 7 non-skill penalties. Great at 4 things (spread between all 3 categories), Good at 2 things, novice at 11.
But it's not 7 or 8 skills, it's still 6. Someone with lots of 3s and 2s in skills is not min-maxing. And the min-maxers are still unskilled at 7 skills, not just 4. Sorry, I think you put too many numbers in there, try again and check your math.
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Having played the Buffy RPG and read the Angel RPG, I’d recommend Angel over anything by WW now, even if you’re like me and just want to play a solid supernatural game that’s fun. Repeatedly watching easy unopposed rolls come up empty in VtR is definitely no fun. Pick up Angel instead of nWoD and VtR. Better game, and you’ll save money, too.
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This is something we agree on. Angel rocks, and it's funny because I hate the show and wasn't a big fan of Unisystem. It got so many good reviews, I just had to pick it up and see what all the fuss was about. I found out that the fuss was about one of the best low-powered supers systems I've ever seen! Crazy good.
I recommend getting VtR for the setting, and if possible, convert to Angel/Cinematic Unisystem. NWoD does have many rules issues (and I even stated this in my review), and I would love to see an Angel version. That would roxxors!
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No. Stop trying to sound clever. You’re terrible at it.
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Dude, it's hard to do math correctly and be clever! Those are two different sides of my brain, and one side of mine is always thinking about a girl.
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See above. And check your math. The last dot would cost 50!
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Just to make sure this point goes across, I'm doing this for the third time on this post, while dot costs at CC are double for rank 5, to get from 4-5 with XP is normal one dot cost. See example, last paragraph AND last line on page 35. I suppose what I'm trying to say is RTFM before you dis.
The last dot would be 25.
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But your attributes won’t. And they can potentially add to every skill, right?
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True, but with a not quite min-maxed spread (only taking on a free +1 to make a 5), you will have, from biggest to smallest (before spending all XP on attributes): 5, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1. Spending XP to bring those 1s up will make you have 5, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2. This will leave 5 XP, so if you want, we could bump one of them up to 3 instead of having one bumped from 1 to 2. In the end, they will still suck, because you will be rolling 1 die on all unskilled rolls involving those 6 attributes. It's also good to note that the high attributes (5, 4, 4) will all be in seperate categories. This means that 2/3 of the time, you will be rolling 1 die when min-maxed. I'll give a slightly better percentage than that if you threw your 5 in Dexterity, but that was a rant on another thread.
So your attributes will suck and your skills will end up sucking (2/3 of the time) because of it. If you min-max your attributes, you might as well dump your XP into Skills.
Do me a favor, in the future, don't belittle my opinion. I know the book and the system fairly well.
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I’d sell it if it weren’t so easy to convert d20 material to it, and I couldn’t houserule it into usability. I mean, the Merits list reads like a Feat list. The first thing that sprang to mind was ‘RAVENLOFT!’
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I didn't really go with "feat list" but I did see Bloodlines as "Prestige Classes". I actually looked at Merits and thought "Backgrounds got combined with Merits! YAY! Now it makes sense!"
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The chargen system encourages min-maxing. Which is a good thing, considering how pathetic starting characters are, in a game that makes succeeding at anything much harder than it should be. Just make sure you get a higher starting total of Exp. You won’t improve much on 35.
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No, it doesn't. I'll be the first to say nWoD's system is buggy, but chargen isn't. The more well rounded your character, the better he will do when being faced with the multitude of experiences occured in a roleplaying game.
If you REALLY want me to get all uber-logical, I'll post and compare a min-maxed character and a well-rounded character, compare their average rolls, what they do, etc. I'm pretty tired right now, but if you really want that Roy, I'll do it later.
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At least you presented a reasonably intelligent argument. Kudos to you for that.
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Based on how many times you gave me a "you're dumb" response, the above really caught me by surprise. Then again, I suppose "reasonably intelligent" isn't really a compliment. A dog is reasonably intelligent. You can tell how much I tear thing apart, eh?
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Et toi.
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[just messin']I don't speak spanish[/just messin']
Hasta
EB