Post originally by Ezekiel Black at 2005-02-20 07:51:41
Converted from Phorums BB System
Roy Morgan wrote:
-------------------------------
Point: You can now see why I think starting characters in this game are pathetic, considering how much harder it is to succeed at anything in this game, even on unresisted rolls. Which is fine if you're a power-tripping GM, but rotten if you're a player.
“I'm sorry, I fail to see how this will help the GM any more than the players, unless the GM is not scaling the opponents correctly.”
‘Power-tripping GM’, Zeke. They rarely bother with scale. Good GMs aren’t even mentioned in this line.
-------------------------------
I was pointing out the fact that your "Point:" that it was harder to succeed in the game means it is for everybody, not just players. Power-tripping GMs had nothing to do with your previous statement or mine, and should be considered the exception, not the rule, when it comes to game systems.
-------------------------------
Which is fine for Victim Horror, but not a lot of help if you want characters to survive for a little while.
“Actually, characters will survive just fine if they don't try to kill everything in sight.”
No question of that, but it’s not the issue at hand.
-------------------------------
Yes, it is. You're stating that the above rules wouldn't be a lot of help if you want your characters to survive. I'm stating that, just like every other RPG, if characters don't incite random combat, they will live (D&D not withstanding). GMs and players will live by the same rules, so the characters will survive just fine.
-------------------------------
“They are monsters, they are in a society, and the game (VtR) favors social conflict over physical conflict.”
So did VtM.
-------------------------------
I saw too much evidence against that statement to agree with you. To each his own.
-------------------------------
“The scale does change, it just lies to itself and says it doesn't
“
The scale itself does not change. The outlay of purchasing points for attributes does, mostly for the worst. Which becomes apparent the moment you start rolling dice.
-------------------------------
The fact that the scale change becomes apparent the moment you start rolling dice proves the scale did change. Like I said, the game lies to itself and says it doesn't. When core roll resolution changes, a game's scale (as far as success and failure, and what X rank can do) always changes.
-------------------------------
That ridiculous "primary/secondary/tertiary" division of starting attribute and skill points is the frequent culprit of min-maxing in both games. In house rules for oWoD (and consequently in nWoD), it was the first thing to be blown to Bad Idea Hell. Besides, it encourages stereotypes, which is something WW claimed their game system was trying to eliminate. Which only proves that it's easier to say you're doing something than to actually do it. While it does make things harder on the GM in chargen than before, in either system low attributes were a really bad thing to have, and this tends to self-correct everyone but the min-maxers. And they tend to be easier to spot as a consequence, if the GM's doing his job right.
-------------------------------
True dat.
-------------------------------
Personally, I didn’t mind the setting of oWoD. It became a complicated mess when WW started farming out the writing of books for the setting to authors who were usually not involved in the writing of the original books...
-------------------------------
I actually had issues with the setting as soon as I read the corebook, which is an opinion I voiced in my review. I'll not repeat myself here, but suffice to say, I'm not a fan.
-------------------------------
NWoD is a much CLEANER setting right now. But then, so was oWoD at first. If WW follows the same farming-out policy as before, that will change in a hurry. Hopefully, the deliberately paced release schedule we’re seeing is indicative of far more care being used in the production of material from now on.
-------------------------------
Well, that and nothing is really set in stone. The book coming out for the Seven will have 3 different versions of the Seven, one of which you can (but don't have to) use for the reasoning behind the Seven. The fact that the books are detailed to give options, not rules, makes me think more highly of nWoD. Only time will tell.
-------------------------------
Now if they’d just use that same deliberation in fixing the combat system…
-------------------------------
Yes. The Combat system, while faster, is still a mess.
-------------------------------
Remember, both Merits and Flaws were purely optional. Many GMs didn’t allow them.
-------------------------------
I don't understand "optional". Rules are in a book to be used. They are all optional. Why label one rule "optional" over others? This has nothing to do with contradicting you, just an honest question that I've always had about RPGs in general.
-------------------------------
My apologies for the interpretation error, and the tone. After correcting someone else’s misinterpretation for almost an hour and a pretty rotten few days at work, I was pretty peeved when I wrote that.
-------------------------------
No worries, I used to have a job in Business DSL Tech Support. I could tell really funny, and by funny, I mean horrible, stories.
-------------------------------
Remember, I said DECENT. Not great. Not even good. Lower those scores to 3 and you get a different set of numbers.
-------------------------------
...
-------------------------------
Now that could be considered following a strategy rather than min-maxing. But it a sense, it IS min-maxing, as the player in question has minimized his chances of ever rolling anything with unskilled penalties. Min-maxing isn’t just about having high numbers. And anyone who’s played this game will want to avoid those very harsh unskilled skill penalties, especially in the Mental skill category.
-------------------------------
Minimizing risk is definately powergaming, but "min-maxing" strictly involves dumping "Crap Stats" and maxing "Good Stats" to make the character more powerful than everyone else. That's what I thought you were talking about, so I wrote the "VtR min-maxing works!" post to show that min-maxing doesn't work in VtR.
--------------------------------
Which is an understandable consideration. It’s why I settle for sounding deliberate most of the time, with occasional bursts of mania (usually accidental).
--------------------------------
I go for "logical @$$hole". I'm usually right, but everyone else hates to admit it because I'm a dick about it. The reason I'm a dick is because I have OCD, and if I see somebody with an incorrect (in my own flawed judgement) opinion, I must enlighten them. I'm a nice guy in real life. I've actually toned down my antics on this board over others in the past, because if I didn't and a Troll showed up, well, I bet you could figure out where that'd go.
--------------------------------
You’re still very good at misinterpreting what I say. Trust me, when I belittle your opinion, there won’t be any need for interpretation. You’ll know it.
--------------------------------
Thanks, um, I'll write that down in my "Roy Morgan" file ;-)
--------------------------------
And it sounds by now like we BOTH know the book and the system quite well. But again, min-maxing isn’t just about having the highest score in one area. It’s also about avoiding weaknesses that can be exploited. Risk can also be minimized.
--------------------------------
I've (and you've) already said that technically, that's not min-maxing. But arguably, risk management can be used in any game system to powergame. The rules in VtR favor people who spread their skills out, which I technically can't call a "bad" thing.
--------------------------------
Personally, I preferred the days when Backgrounds were separate from Merits. Since Backgrounds rarely, if ever, came into play, the low cost for them fit their usefulness. Most of their effects tended to be outside the game. But that may have just been my group.
--------------------------------
Dunno, I saw a lot of power and play from "Generation". But the whole "combat maneuver Merits" thing is a little if-y, if you ask me.
--------------------------------
Right. But see my comments above. The strategy produces a well-rounded character, by nWoD standards, and requires as little preparation and background as any min-maxed character. You can even just copy the number-sets down, interchange the ‘or’ cases, and go to town. Like I said, risk is another thing to be minimized.
--------------------------------
We will beat this dead horse back to life.
--------------------------------
I saw your later post. The conclusion that VtR does not encourage min-maxing isn’t quite correct, but it’s a very nice, well-conducted analysis. My proverbial hat’s off to you for it.
--------------------------------
Merci.
And It's very correct, I've already said why (as to the definition of min-maxing), so I'll just leave it at that.
--------------------------------
Yes, and you often do it needlessly. Zeke, your whole tone is condescending, from the first word to the last, in most of your debating posts that I’ve read. Cast the beam out of thine own eye, before reaching for splinters in the eyes of others.
--------------------------------
Logical @$$shole. I actually started up with you do to your condescention and whatnot to PI. And from what I've read of your other posts, you are a pot calling the kettle black. No offense, it's just my opinion.
--------------------------------
That isn’t criticism, by the way. It’s advice.
--------------------------------
Oh sure. I take your advice, then I'll have to take the advice of everyone else who I meet on the internet and conversed with less than a dozen times.
I don't do criticism, I don't do advice. That's like trying to impose ideals and beliefs on others. Telling someone what's wrong with them when in reality, I don't have a damn clue. I state what I think, others can take it or leave it. In the end, it's what they're going to do with advice or criticism anyway.
See, I tear everything apart.
--------------------------------
And from me, ‘reasonably intelligent’ is a compliment. I don’t compliment easily or often. Side effect of my workplace.
--------------------------------
I don't do compliments either, unless the reciever is a woman. But that's for a whole different reason
--------------------------------
Nor French. But I won’t hold that against you.
--------------------------------
[whispers to friend]He knew that was the joke, right?[/whispers to friend]
--------------------------------
Au revoir.
--------------------------------
Bon Appetit