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Originally Posted by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara
Tim—if I can detract from the direction of this thread so far. Ahem.
I’m, assuming that your #2 game is Marvel Superheroes. If so, can you discuss what you think MSH does better than T&J, as well as what you think T&J does better than MSH?
I’m also assuming that your #1 game is Hearts & Souls, but I won’t ask you about that.  |
Actually no 2 is tied for MSH and Marvel Saga Asventure game, each do things differently and each have good things.
What does MSH do better than T&J: Single, continuous scale. While I admire the recognition T&J gives that somethings are bigger/grander etc. It doesn't do so quite as clearly as MSH which simply stacks up a single linear system.
In reality T&J /should/ be written like so: Poor Average Good {...} Superscale "Poor" "Average" etc with new words for the superscale stuff to be clear. While some see msh ranks and see its a bit "unclear" the big chart shows every step related to every previous step, and, since the chart is central to game play its very very useful.
Karma awards are faster, larger, and I feel they have more impact than T&J HP in some respects because they aren't random--lots of T&J HP has "spend X points to roll Y dice to see how much you get in return" while MSH is random a bit, Karma is spent on a point for point basis for actually effecting outcome. That means its clear, easy to use, and doesn't randomly bite someone who spent points desperatly who just had a bad die roll.
Now T&J rules don't indicate they are as powerful as Adventure's Inspiration but some have said that's true, and the initial book isn't clear that is so. Since it is (according to the mailing list ) that makes HP in T&J have a bit more effect in some ways than Karma. (Plot editing basically.
The words in MSH are highly evocative too--Incredible, Amazing, Unearthly--exciting, big comic book words. unlike "Average" "Master" etc. (both use the term Good though.)
Power Stunts in MSH work better IMHO--this is a bit of heresy because they're really effective, cheap, and powerful in Marvel Saga, and T&J, and that's the point, in MSH, they aren't so cheap, and many powers are pretty much only optimal if you develop stunts for them--now that may seem as limiting, true, but I consider it very much like a resource mechanic--karma you earn allows you to build up to the big dramaticv, power effect twist---both Marvel Saga and T&J suffer that these can be done at any time, without restraint. A weather controller can walk into a bank heist and hit them with a hurricane first off- with no subtlety to it. Marvel Comics never seemed to work that way--the hero would arrive, have banter/scene interact a bit, then use powers which didn't immediatly overscale the situation. Yes someone playing the "comics" right won't do that, but timing isn't particularly addressed in any game, MSH seems to have "got" to me that aspect it was from an age of rules rather than saying 'Hey don't do this..." but it did so quite respectivably and subtly enough most people don't see it as a resource mechanic--when it really (to me) is.
MSH has some flaws of rigidity but those don't overwhelm the rest of it.
Saga, well, it was the first supers game I found that put control over the outcomes in part in the players hands--letting them choose how things would play out with cards (sort of like having prerolled dice and picking the ones for actions you find important--The Hulk's player wouldn't necessarily waste a good card on sneaking, because he's the HULK, HULK SMASH!--well at least one version of him.
Saga allowed slightly more classic four color play because of the ability to trump, played edge, get high results--thus meaning that action was fast, powerful in outcome, plus it was easy to resolve. MSh was from the 80's and 80's Marvel wasn't quite as four color as the rest--Spider-Man got a black costume, the Phoenix/Jean Grey died, we got Days of Future Past--an alternate but still impactful reality on the main MU--and it was a little less over the top during that era, a little more tonally darker. MSH did that well, Saga less so--but it was from the 90's and the comics had changed to where it was more appropriate engine for representing the sometimes absurd eggagerated art, over the top action etc.
I wish I'd thought of some of this before I wrote H&S final draft honestly--or read T&J for seeing some small things it missed, that I missed too (strangely nothing I really wanted to nick per se from it, as much as I like the attribute/plot hook element) . H&S well, is different. You'll see. Im sure I'll get hammered for some decisions I made but it was what I wanted, and what works best IMHO for any possible campaigns.