[Menchi]

Originally Posted by Harlequins_Back

I respectfully disagree. In my multiple playtests, we spent more time looking up rules than we did playing the game. This held for all aspects of the game-- matrix, magic, and physical.

Buh-wuh? I am impressed. I usually find "add 2 dice" or "lose 2 dice" to be pretty easy to understand. Most of the ranged rules boil down to that and that alone.

Matrix - again, comes down to att+stat+modifier type rules. Very simple.

I'm sorry, but you're totally wrong here. The matrix slang isn't any more "realistic" than before. It's now based on Windows instead of being a unique invention. The 80's style punk talk was and is a part of the whole Shadowrun atmosphere-- Japanese megacorps taking over everywhere, the concept of the corporate citizen, the faceless masses, massive entertainment complexes... the list goes on and on. This is not more "believeabe"-- it's less original, based on what people are saying now, instead of a unique vision of the future.

Dude - it's computer programming language, not windows. I know enough programmers to know the difference. You're just upset that the words "decker" and "drek" aren't common parlance anymore. Shadowrun has moved on. Most roleplayers don't care for anachronistic eighties slang. Nothing's preventing you from using it if you like it - but expecting someone to penalise the score of the product just because you like some outmoded language has no relevance.

I repeat - the slang objection is irrelevant to the quality of the game.

Not remotely. Edge has some similarities, but it's actually a lot more overpowering than the Karma pool was. It can also be front-loaded extremely heavily, which Karma pool could not be.

Again - you're inflating this beyond the reality of the system. Edge is a powerful, but very limited resource. It is also scaleable by GMs who want a grittier game, and the book provides guidelines for doing just that. Objecting to it is smacking of looking for things to complain about.

I'm not going to go there. There are enough flames across the net detailing the comparisons between the systems. For now, let us acknowledge that 3rd was a system with many flaws. And if you want details as to why I don't think nSR is an improvement, read this.

I did, and I commented there as I have here that you're objections really have little foundation in the actual product and more in your personal problem that it isn't the eighties/nineties anymore as far as Shadowrun goes.

Personally, I have loved Shadowrun from the very first edition and I have found this edition to be closer to the intent and soul of shadowrun. I have no issues with the older editions, but their times have come and gone. SR4 makes the game competitive with modern RPGs. That's an impressive feat for such an anachronistic game that was a product of its time.

This isn't a fixed vs floating TN thing, so much as it is the loss of allocatable dice pools. The first time I saw them in action in 2nd, I was amazed-- there was such a detailed and fluid way of showing what your character was emphasizing. For example, if you allocated most of your combat pool to offense, you were trying to take down the other guy, hard. If you were focused on defense, then it showed that as well. and you could finely tune exactly how much your character was focused on each aspect.

Again, you're complaining that it isn't the game you liked - which has no relation to how the new system works as its own thing. You are looking for faults where there are none because you don't seem to want to admit that you just want more shadowrun 3rd.

I reccomend waiting, or at least doing a full inspection on your books first. There have been many complaints about printer errors in the 3rd printing-- lots of page repeats and replacements. You should not buy a copy of nSR sight unseen; check it thouroughly before you hand over money. Most places will probably replace your copy without argument, but there's no reason to go through all this trouble.

Oddly enough, the LGS here has about seven copies and none of them showed any of these errors as far as I am aware of. My copy of the second printing is also good.

HB - you're welcome to your objections, but they are so far not matching up with any physical or anecdotal evidence. You're complaints about the system certainly don't match anything I or anyone who I have spoken to about SR4 have experienced.

Conan