Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortality
Defences are something that must be overcome by the attack, trap or effect. For poison, it must be more powerful than the characters internal fortitude can resist, a pit trap must be harder to avoid falling into than their reflex defence would allow them to avoid. It takes a little shift in thinking, but the randomising roll is merely being done on the other side.
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Yes, I realize that: please note my second point, i.e.
"Inanimate objects such as traps now have to "attack" a defense..."
But, as I also said: "even if this seems illogical or awkward. " Some of the example traps making "attack" rolls just seems plain silly. Yes, mathematically, it is much the same thing. but it still feels weird. And it takes the emphasis off the player, who would be making the save in earlier editions, and puts it on to a (virtual) inanimate object. Maybe I'm just biased by my experience with other RPGs which do just the opposite - i.e. give the NPCs/objects/etc. static values and have the players roll for everything - but this just seems wrong to me. My players don't like it either, since it results in a sort of "passive observer of my own fate" situation, as one player put it.
Of course, this is just an opinion, not a mechanical problem. On the other hand...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortality
I don't know how the pit trap is set up in KotS, but all of the traps in the DMG use attacks against one of the relevant defences, and saves only come into it if there is an ongoing effect.
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KotS sometimes uses saving thows in a reactionary way, as in the pit trap example, and I have seen other examples in WotC stuff. It is also hinted at in the DMG, although, as you say, the trap examples are mostly attack versus defense (this is not exactly a shining improvement though, given my earlier comments). I would assume that the DMG method is the right one, but, if so, WotC should be more careful in their own adventures - especially given that KotS was supposed to be the "flagship" and early demo for 4E.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortality
Also, as a suggestion if the shift in thinking is too much to deal with, you can make the players roll to avoid the trap. Just add the 'attack' bonus of the trap to 21, and make the player roll and add their defence. I believe that works out the same.
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Yes, we thought of that. But please keep in mind that my comments were based on the game the way it IS written, not the way we might want to house rule it.