[Menchi]

Originally Posted by capnzapp

Hi,

Haven't finished reading the review (it looks promising) but one small possible error:


(my emphasis)

Do you perhaps mean the opposite, that 4E classes are completely... unrecognizable? ...from their previous incarnations?

However, I would have thought the main criticism against 4E classes is that powers make them too similar compared with each other, not that Fighters and Wizards aren't Fighters or Wizards in the 3E sense...?

So I'm not sure what you mean, other than you probably don't mean they're exactly the same as in 3E!?

Mea Culpa - I should proof-read more often.

I meant that some have changed from the 3rd edition classes to the point that they are quite different in play.

Originally Posted by capnzapp

Of course, D&D has always been about "tiers" in the sense that you need to change your outlook on the game depending on your adventurers' level.

Question/Call for clarification:

You say "plateaus" of experience. Do you feel that the difference between level 10-11 is greater than either of 9-10 or 11-12 then? Apart from the basic fact you're starting down your paragon path I mean? As I said, D&D has always had several "tiers" of gameplay, but in my experience this shift was not sudden or clearly marked.

Sometimes, you would "travel the world for adventure" already at level 8. Other times, it wouldn't "happen" until level 12.

In OD&D, you reached "name" level, and you could say that meant for a "sudden" change. Do you feel 4E is like this, or is it more gradual like in 3E?

Not really that true. A level 15 game while "bigger" in scope would often still play out similar to a level 5. There was a progression in power, but not easily marked out "tiers of play. Having recently played a Paragon game, there is a distinctive difference in the way the various tiers play.

Heroic is mostly about setting up situations for dramatic "show-stopper" type dailies.

Paragon is more like a wushu crouching tiger style game where crazy stunts are being pulled off every round and the characters are leaping all over the battle field, pushing and pulling opponents everywhich way.

I'm yet to try Epic, but it seems to me that it will ramp up the tactical movement.

In previous editions, you could usually play with the same tactics you used since the early levels. In 4e, each tier seems to require considerably different tactics.

Originally Posted by capnzapp

Of course, the roles has existed in all editions of D&D. It's just that with 4E, they're explicitly spelled out.

For the benefit of those who didn't realize they were there all along, I guess.

So I'm happy for that player of yours, that 4E has enabled him to see the roles for what they are. Personally though, this is nothing new, and I would definitely stay away from the dubious argument "4E enables people to try out all the classes while 3E sticks them in a rut".

Cheers

I disagree. While roles may have been implied in older editions - they weren't the centre of the design of the various classes - hence not all classes were made equal. Some classes just simply muddied the waters as to what you could do.

By making Roles and explicit and central design goal, it has been easier to focus on each class and design them to best suit the role rather than they used to be.

I wouldn't say 3e deliberately sticks people in a rut, but the way Classes were built in 3e meant that a lot of people just wouldn't play certain classes due to play style.

4e will still have some of this - but the roles system and the use of powers encourages players to try all the classes and from current experience, people are more likely to try a number of different styles rather than only play the same rogue character they have been playing since the seventies.

YMMV of course, but in my experience, 4e is a game that encourages more wider play.

But as I said before, it has some flaws. The biggest at the moment is that it kind of implies certain builds over others - and some classes simply have an illusion of choice. This will expand out in the future - but that could lead more to a 3e issue of too many c classes, or it could substantially improve the game.

Conan