Twilight Imperium- Master of Orion the boardgame?

[Gylthinel]

Originally Posted by Illegible Smudge

I have to say, the games I've played tend more towards the 10-12 hour mark. And yes, it is hard to stand, especially when that mark tends to fall around 2-4 am! We've vowed to have no more marathons, but to plan for a two session game from the outset. Otherwise it's just too draining.

I'd love to know how a 4-6 hour game is achieved. My only beef, ONLY beef w/ TI is the extended duration, which is killing it for me and my group. Kids and jobs are getting in the way of playing.

[timonkey]

I'm in the middle length. I don't think I've played in a 4 hour game (though I've seen it done with another group of experienced four players and little/no combat). Usually I think games I've been in have been around 6 hours, or maybe somewhat more, if everyone knows the game.

I'm curious, people who take 10+ hours, are you playing with more of the optional rules?
Are you getting victory points on most turns?
Do you patiently watch what everyone else does on their action and wait until it's your turn to decide what to do?
Do you get into a lot of combat?

I know it's a long game, I just don't see how it could take twice as long as what I'm used to.

[Illegible Smudge]

I'm curious, people who take 10+ hours, are you playing with more of the optional rules?
Some, not all. We use a couple of the variant strategy cards including the Imperium II card and therefore also the Age of Empire rules. Otherwise, we use racial technologies, variant objectives, artifacts, custodians of Mecatol Rex, and Voice of the Council. We've also tried space mines and shock troops in a game or two, but tend to see them as overly fiddly. No leaders, distant suns, or facilities etc. I am keen to try the simulated start rules though to try and speed things up.

Are you getting victory points on most turns?
Yes. Most people try to achieve an objective a turn, and occasionally try for extra via the Imperial II card.

Do you patiently watch what everyone else does on their action and wait until it's your turn to decide what to do?
This is probably the key problem, the old analysis paralysis. I mean, I think most of us try and plan ahead while others are taking their turns, but unfortunately things do drag now and again. Plus we tend to take lots of breaks for diplomatic discussions. And unfortunately, there's one player who sadly forces the rest of us to watch him like hawks to avoid creative accounting/memory lapses/cheating, depending on how charitable you are.

Do you get into a lot of combat?
Not until late in the game - there's usually a lot of fleet building and brinkmanship, but the fear of a third party swooping in to crush the victor means that it tends to remain limited to arms races until someone finally presses the button and all hell breaks loose.

Oh, and there's a lot of rulebook checking.

[AztecInk]

the removal of Imperial 1 causes the longer game times.

essentially including all set up time the game should take 1 hour to set up and 1 and a half hours per player if everyone is experienced (much longer if you have 1 or more newbs). people who are getting 4 hours games are probably playing the Simulated Early Turns variant.

but yea TI3 is the possibly the best board game i have ever played.

One gripe would be the political part of the game, which while it does add some flavor to the game is much watered down from versions 1 and 2. it really should be enhanced in a further expansion but with the people i play with there are lots of meetings and deals made between different allied groups on round breaks.

[timonkey]

Analysis Paralysis can be a big problem with TI. Personally, one thing I do to speed up the game is to take actions that I know I'm going to take sooner rather than later so I don't have to take time on my turn thinking.

Another thing which I think is key to how we've played is that when we build during our turn, we do any movement and then just say "I'm building" and figure out exactly what units we're building while other people continue to take their turns. Late in the game when there are attacks looming this isn't an option, but most of the game when everyone is spread out or turtling it doesn't affect anyone else's decisions really. Someone can always ask "what are you building?" or maybe just "how much are you spending?" if it matters.

You mention diplomatic discussions, what about? Usually we don't have an excessive amount of this. Usually just about trade agreements and borders.

I haven't played with the Imperium II card, so I don't know how that affects length. I've only used the original cards and the completely new set in the expansion (which are infinitely better). I don't remember it taking any longer with the new cards.

You say lots of rulebook checking, how many people have actually read the rules? Having at least half is good if only for making it easier to find stuff. And the PDF is online.

[Illegible Smudge]

Originally Posted by timonkey

You mention diplomatic discussions, what about? Usually we don't have an excessive amount of this. Usually just about trade agreements and borders.

Borders, fleet movements, alliances, requests for aid, military strategy, division of spoils, loans, demilitarized zones, and most importantly, keeping a lid on border tensions and build-ups with reassurances of good intentions (either sincere or not).

I haven't played with the Imperium II card, so I don't know how that affects length. I've only used the original cards and the completely new set in the expansion (which are infinitely better). I don't remember it taking any longer with the new cards.

It probably does slow things down compared to the original Imperial card, but it's so much better that going back to original card is out of the question. We've tried the Bureaucracy and Assembly set once as well, but opinion is mixed. The intent of the new cards (making politics more important) is great, but the implementation seems a bit wonky and a number of us thought the game wasn't as satisfying as it is using Imperial II and Age of Empire. Being able to see the objectives and plan accordingly really helps make the game more engaging IMHO.

You say lots of rulebook checking, how many people have actually read the rules? Having at least half is good if only for making it easier to find stuff. And the PDF is online.

Yeah, not enough basically. Two of us are fairly familiar with the rules, whilst the others either consult on an as-needed basis or ask how something works.

[timonkey]

Originally Posted by Illegible Smudge

Borders, fleet movements, alliances, requests for aid, military strategy, division of spoils, loans, demilitarized zones, and most importantly, keeping a lid on border tensions and build-ups with reassurances of good intentions (either sincere or not).

I think something that's happened in our games is that we all recognize how cold war the game is, so we don't worry about negotiating that much. You do what you can get away with, take what territory you can. Whoever gets there first pretty much gets it. You just make sure that you don't do so much that you make it worthwhile for them to go to war with you.

[Gylthinel]

Originally Posted by Illegible Smudge

Borders, fleet movements, alliances, requests for aid, military strategy, division of spoils, loans, demilitarized zones, and most importantly, keeping a lid on border tensions and build-ups with reassurances of good intentions (either sincere or not).

We do the same thing a LOT.

Originally Posted by Illegible Smudge

It probably does slow things down compared to the original Imperial card, but it's so much better that going back to original card is out of the question.

Mostly agree, though we like Bureacracy.

Originally Posted by Timonkey

Analysis Paralysis can be a big problem with TI.

Agreed. Have you tried anything to mitigate this? We've discussed using a timer, but that seems a-hole-ish.

[Asmodai]

Originally Posted by AztecInk

the removal of Imperial 1 causes the longer game times.

essentially including all set up time the game should take 1 hour to set up and 1 and a half hours per player if everyone is experienced (much longer if you have 1 or more newbs). people who are getting 4 hours games are probably playing the Simulated Early Turns variant.

but yea TI3 is the possibly the best board game i have ever played.

One gripe would be the political part of the game, which while it does add some flavor to the game is much watered down from versions 1 and 2. it really should be enhanced in a further expansion but with the people i play with there are lots of meetings and deals made between different allied groups on round breaks.

Round breaks?

No wonder it takes you so long. If you want to talk, do so when it's not your turn, but we're not going to stop the game for you.

[timonkey]

Originally Posted by Gylthinel

Agreed. Have you tried anything to mitigate this? We've discussed using a timer, but that seems a-hole-ish.

We actually did try to use a timer. It was part of an active effort to cut down on play time because we were unsatisfied with how long it was taking us to play, even though it's much less than some other people here. The problem with a timer is how long to set it for? Most actions take very little time, but if you have a timer that says you have time left you feel entitled to it. Also, if the timer goes off, how much time do you give to 'finish up' (especially since they may not have made a valid move by the end of the timer)?

Having everyone actively working towards making the game shorter helps. Or assign someone (maybe change each time you pick strategy cards) to keep people on task. I know we lose a significant amount of time because people don't know it's their turn. Also, excluding people who are not as good at the game helps. TI is the kind of game where this kind of makes sense, as long as no feelings are hurt. Taking breaks is usually very detrimental to time, especially having to eat in the middle has been a killer a couple of times (I wouldn't count this as game time, but it does delay the end of the game).