"Implement: Many arcane spells are more effective when used in conjunction with an implement. - a wizard's staff, orb or wand, or a warlock's rod of wand. Many divine prayers use holy symbols as implements. To grant it's benefits to a divine character, a holy symbol must represent a character's patron deity or one of a group of deities a character serves. It is not necessary to have an implement in order to use a power with the implement keyword"
"Implement: Many arcane spells are more effective when used in conjunction with an implement. - a wizard's staff, orb or wand, or a warlock's rod of wand. Many divine prayers use holy symbols as implements. To grant it's benefits to a divine character, a holy symbol must represent a character's patron deity or one of a group of deities a character serves. It is not necessary to have an implement in order to use a power with the implement keyword"
Ah, right. I was referring to the "you receive a +1 untyped bonus if you use an implement." That's not explicitly called out - I assume that only exists if you have a magical implement (as opposed to a mundane one).
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I referred to Kobolds seeing as they're extremely commonly used, and two of the most commonly-encountered types (skirmishers and slingers) have the least-favorable Ref/AC ratios in the entire volume (only Kruthik Young come close, I think). In perhaps one or two other cases, the gap is only 1, and in no other cases is is 0 or negative. In all other cases, the gap is at least 2
Well, you referred to them as constituting "most" of the high ref monsters in the book, and you were wrong then and you are wrong now. All four wraiths have equal AC and reflex, as does the stirge swarm, both spectres, shadowraven swarm, sorrowsworn soulripper, red slaad, skeletal tomb guardian etc. This time I started at the back end of the alphabet and stopped at S when I got bored as well as convinced that your numbers where pulled out of fine air. Which is very unlike you! On my way through I noticed about an equally large group of monsters that had only a difference of 1 and one particular gem, the Deathrattle Viper which has 18 reflex and 17 AC.
I don't think the trend changes, but I'm not going to check. I'm going to sleep*. Irregardless, it's definitly not a case of "perhaps one or two other cases", unless I've missed something big.
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Targeters of Reflex are very seldom at a small disadvantage, and very often at a significant advantage. I think that's fair.
I'm not saying it's impossible to conclude that it indeed is fair, though I'd love to hear some good arguments. Basically I'm saying I'd agree with you if what you were saying was true, but I'm going to need a little more since your numbers are way off.
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Originally Posted by braincraft
Creatures are balanced around the assumption that the Ref/AC gap is going to be about 2. That's apparent in a reading of the MM, explicit in a reading of the DMG, and implicit in a reading of the PHB.
But isn't that kinda.. A bad idea? Non-implement attack forms get a minimum of +2 and a treat on top of that? Sure, as mentioned, having a huge accuracy in some cases *is* a benefit, but I'd much rather have a reliable option. Could you give me a page reference from the DMG (I never really got through it) maybe it makes sense to me if I read their rationale.
Anyway, I think the biggest problems for casters are the lack of feats and the relative difficulty of getting cheap, reliable and sustainable energy combat advantage.
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Last edited by Cortani; 09-10-2008 at 05:10 PM..
Reason: *This turned out to be a lie. I went for a jog instead. Also, now with 40% less confrontational!
But isn't that kinda.. A bad idea? Non-implement attack forms get a minimum of +2 and a treat on top of that? Sure, as mentioned, having a huge accuracy in some cases *is* a benefit, but I'd much rather have a reliable option. Could you give me a page reference from the DMG (I never really got through it) maybe it makes sense to me if I read their rationale.
Anyway, I think the biggest problems for casters are the lack of feats and the relative difficulty of getting cheap, reliable and sustainable energy combat advantage.
Monster creation guildlines. AC is base 14+Level, Reflex is base 12+Level.
Stats can add up to +1 to +2 to Reflex if Dex/Int is the attack stat.
Artillery and Brutes get -2 AC, Soldiers get +2 AC.
Hmm:
"Using an implement on a power with the implement keyword is useful, but not required. If you do use an implement, you get an untyped +1 bonus to hit and damage with the power. Enchanted implements can grant additional bonuses."
For a minute it all made sense, but sadly this is not true. I'm not sure why this is in quotes, because I searched the PHB thoroughly and it's not there. This is what the PHB says:
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Originally Posted by PHB
Using a nonmagical implement confers no benefit.
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Originally Posted by PHB
Using a nonmagical holy symbol confers no benefit.
So whoever brought up the point was right; nonmagical implements do fuck all except cost you money.
Mathematically, it is impossible for even a well-constructed warlock to out damage a well constructed ranger or rogue. Someone over on ENWorld did a huge study on this stuff.
Well there's your problem right there.
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Well, Yakk's version made so much sense that I assumed it was core. Hence why I spent upwards of 15 minutes poring through my book.
Giving out free items is only a band-aid. Core 4e allots a 5th-level item to a 1st-level party, which is a +1 item and a Twinkie. So unless you're just playing favorites and giving all the good items to the casters, your fix, sadly, isn't.
He presents the average difference between AC and each of the other defences from the MM monters organized by tier and role. Also statistics on attacks, resistances, vulnerabilities, senses, movement, the lot. It must have been a lot of work!
So whoever brought up the point was right; nonmagical implements do fuck all except cost you money.
For divine implement users and warlocks, that's true, but wizards need to have the right implement to use their Arcane Implement Mastery class feature.
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