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  #1  
Old 06-17-2003, 11:28 AM
Dave Turner Dave Turner is offline
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Idiot's Guide to Hero Wars?

Ok, I borrowed Hero Wars from a buddy to read. I like to consider myself a reasonably smart guy, but I was flummoxed by the system. Am I alone in thinking that the system chapter (which is inexplicably buried in the center of the book) is very confusingly presented? I could have sworn that the term "target number" is used to represent two different things.

So, is there another version which actually explains the system in a way I can understand? Does anyone care to explain it here?
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  #2  
Old 06-17-2003, 11:39 AM
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philippe tromeur philippe tromeur is offline
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Re: Idiot's Guide to Hero Wars?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Turner
So, is there another version which actually explains the system in a way I can understand? Does anyone care to explain it here?
The French version (with clearer explanations, and a lot more examples). You can buy it in France.
The revised american edition, Heroquest, will be easier to understand (the authors insist on clarity).
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  #3  
Old 06-17-2003, 11:41 AM
sben sben is offline
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Re: Idiot's Guide to Hero Wars?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Turner
Ok, I borrowed Hero Wars from a buddy to read. I like to consider myself a reasonably smart guy, but I was flummoxed by the system. Am I alone in thinking that the system chapter (which is inexplicably buried in the center of the book) is very confusingly presented? I could have sworn that the term "target number" is used to represent two different things.

So, is there another version which actually explains the system in a way I can understand? Does anyone care to explain it here?
Boy, are you in luck: HeroQuest, the revised version of HW with much rewriting and clarifying (but little actual rules changes) is at the printer as we speak.

Issaries has a PDF explaining the core mechanic on their site (http://www.heroquest-rpg.com/hw/samp...esSynopsis.pdf), but I can't promise it's clearer.
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Old 06-17-2003, 12:17 PM
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Just watch that 80s cartoon, Ducktales. That will tell you everything you need to know.
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  #5  
Old 06-17-2003, 12:33 PM
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Re: Idiot's Guide to Hero Wars?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Turner
Ok, I borrowed Hero Wars from a buddy to read. I like to consider myself a reasonably smart guy, but I was flummoxed by the system. Am I alone in thinking that the system chapter (which is inexplicably buried in the center of the book) is very confusingly presented? I could have sworn that the term "target number" is used to represent two different things.

So, is there another version which actually explains the system in a way I can understand? Does anyone care to explain it here?
No, you're not alone at all. Hero Wars is a wonderful system, but it's not well presented at all. Fortunately, as has already been mentioned, HeroQuest is much clearer. More examples, more explanation, better all around.

In the meantime, there'sthis thread here going on at the moment that might help answer some of your questions. There's a particularly good example of how an Extended Contest plays out.
If that doesn't help, do feel free to pop up and ask more specific questions. "Explain Hero Wars" is a bit much to do all in one go! What is it that's got you particularly stumped at the moment?

Another very good place to ask this sort of thing, by the way, is the "hw-rules" mailing list on yahoogroups.
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  #6  
Old 06-17-2003, 01:24 PM
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Okay, I decided to have a stab at this after all...

The core mechanic of Hero Wars is to select an ability to what you're trying to do and simply roll under it. For example, Oranda (who is hungry) is trying to persuade Ferena (a steadwife) to give her some free food. The narrator can decide to handle this in several ways:

1. No need to roll.
If the narrator feels that "no self-respecting hero should fail" at cadging a meal from Ferena - perhaps Ferena is known for her generosity to the poor and hungry - then she can allow Oranda to succeed automatically.


2. A Simple Contest.
If the narrator thinks that this might not work, she can make the attempt to cadge food a simple contest (see HW p126-127). In this case:

* Oranda rolls her ability: Cadge A Meal 18
* Ferena rolls her ability: Prudent 17

To determine who succeeds, compare the level of success that each character gets on their roll on the Simple Contest Chart (p127). For example, if Oranda rolls a success and Ferena rolls a failure, then Oranda has gained a Minor Victory. You might decide that Oranda gets the following results from her attempt, depending on the level of victory or defeat:

* Complete Victory - Ferena gives her a freshly baked apple pie, a mug of fresh mead and some bread and meat to take away with her.
* Major Victory - Oranda gets some meat and fresh bread.
* Minor Victory - Oranda gets a bowl of porridge and some water.
* Marginal Victory - Oranda gets some dry crusts of bread.
* Marginal Defeat - Ferena will not give Oranda anything.
* Minor Defeat - Ferena shoos Oranda away from her house.
* Major Defeat - Ferena throws a bucket of water over Oranda and chases her away.
* Complete Defeat - Ferena beats Oranda with a broom and chases her away.


3. An Extended Contest
If the narrator thinks that Oranda's attempt to cadge food from Ferena is dramatic and should be played out in more detail, she might treat it as an Extended Contest (see HW p128-132; note that the "Simple Contest Chart" on p130 should be labelled as an "EXTENDED Contest Chart").

Rather than write out a whole example of an extended contest, I'll refer you to Tim's example .

In this case, rather than a contest of combat skills, it would be a contest between Oranda's abilities in wheedling food from suckers and Ferena's ability to resist. The level of victory/defeat the contest are determined by how far the losing participant is driven below 0 AP (see HW p132: "Ordinary Consequences Chart"). The narrator would judge the results just as if it were a Simple Contest, as above.


And, really, that's the entire rules mechanic in a nutshell. Anything else is added fiddly bits and complications. The most important of these, which bears explaining, is the concept of "Masteries". Each Mastery (represented by a Mastery Rune or "W") gives you a free "bump up" when you roll your skill. What this does, is to increase the degree of success (see HW p115-116) that you roll by one level per Mastery. For example -

Oranda has the ability Cadge A Meal 18. If she rolls:

* 1 - she has a Critical Success.
* 2-18 - she has a Success.
* 19 - she has a Failure.
* 20 - she has a Fumble.

If she improved this ability to 4W, she would roll as if her skill was 4, then increase her degree of success by one level for her Mastery. So if she rolled:

* 1 - she rolls a Critical Success, which cannot "bump up" any more.
* 2-4 - she rolls a Success, which "bumps up" to a Critical Success.
* 5-19 - she rolls a Failure, which "bumps up" to a Success.
* 20 - she rolls a Fumble, which "bumps up" to a Failure.

If two characters who both have Masteries oppose each other, the Masteries "cancel out". Some examples:

1. Oranda uses her Cadge A Meal 4W, opposed by Ferena's Resist Fast Talk 3W. The Masteries cancel out, giving Oranda an effective skill of 4, and Ferena an effective skill of 3.

2. Oranda tries her Cadge A Meal 4W on Farnan the Stingy, who has Miserly 10W2 (he has 2 Masteries). Oranda's Mastery cancels one of Farnan's two Masteries. Oranda's skill is effectively 4, while Farnan's is effectively 10W.


I hope this helps to make things a little clearer, and that it made some sense. If there's more confusion to be cleared up, do feel free to keep asking questions.
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Old 06-17-2003, 03:15 PM
Dave Turner Dave Turner is offline
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That goes a long way towards sorting it out for me, Spaulding. Thanks so much for taking the time to type that in.

Most importantly, I finally understood how Masteries are supposed to work. Until you pointed out that even a Failure for a Mastered skill is bumped to a Success, I was hard-pressed to figure out how someone with Sword-swinging 1w was better off than someone with Sword-swinging 19, since the character with Mastery had a target number of 1, which is damn hard to roll.
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Old 06-17-2003, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Turner
Until you pointed out that even a Failure for a Mastered skill is bumped to a Success, I was hard-pressed to figure out how someone with Sword-swinging 1w was better off than someone with Sword-swinging 19, since the character with Mastery had a target number of 1, which is damn hard to roll.
Hmm...I'm still fuzzy on the system myself, but aren't they actually the same?

With a target of 19, you critically succeed on a 1, succeed on a 2-19 and fail on a 20.

With a mastery and a target of 1, you succeed (bump to critical) on a 1, fail (bump to success) on a 2-19 and botch (bump to fail) on a 20.

Right? Or not?
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Old 06-17-2003, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackSheep


Hmm...I'm still fuzzy on the system myself, but aren't they actually the same?

With a target of 19, you critically succeed on a 1, succeed on a 2-19 and fail on a 20.

With a mastery and a target of 1, you succeed (bump to critical) on a 1, fail (bump to success) on a 2-19 and botch (bump to fail) on a 20.

Right? Or not?
Wrong
With a target of 19, you critically succeed on a 1, succeed on a 2-19 and fumble on a 20.

With a mastery and a target of 1, you succeed (bump to critical) on a 1, fail (bump to success) on a 2-19 and fumble (bump to fail) on a 20.

So with a mastery you can not fumble unless your opposed roll is a mastery or more.
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Old 06-17-2003, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Turner
That goes a long way towards sorting it out for me, Spaulding. Thanks so much for taking the time to type that in.

Most importantly, I finally understood how Masteries are supposed to work.
No problem. I'm just glad I could help you out. If there's anything else you need to know more about, ask away...

The Mastery mechanic is really nice once you get your head around it. It scales very well so that contests between high-powered characters - like superheroes - don't get silly in the same way that contests between high-skill characters in, say, GURPS or Runequest tend to. And it still allows low-powered spear-carriers a slim chance of beating the best once in a while.
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