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Old 03-22-2002, 05:12 PM
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TrapperQ TrapperQ is offline
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Why all SF games suck.

(Long rant ahead.)

Why do SF games universally suck? I mean the FTL/travelling between the stars genre, not the cyberpunk or men in black stuff.

I think that the big problem with SF games in general is that while they use all the trappings of Science Fiction, they don't set out to do the things that good Science Fiction does, which is to speculate about possible futures. Science fiction is about new ideas. Any story which does not offer new ideas, or even a new angle on an idea is not good SF. (Witness the difference between Star Trek and Voyager.)

Unfortunately, a good RPG requires a setting that everyone is familiar with, a standard template that everyone agrees with before they start messing about with the conventions, but no single SF RPG is seen as the de-facto standard upon which all others can be judged. The problem being that once you have a standard template, everything is cosy and familiar and suddenly not about new ideas anymore.

I think that the structure of RPGs is an anathema to creating good SF stories. And not just SF. This happens with every genre.

Westerns were all about a modern (at the time) world of lawlessness where personal integrity by man who stood alone could make a difference. Each piece of fiction had a man, who did the heroic bit, and won. End of story. The twin RPG ideals of ‘levelling up’ (later to be replaced with ‘character development’) and a party of characters who work together clash with the very things that made Westerns popular with their fans. Merely setting a game in Montana and replacing orcs with ‘Injuns’ does not a Western make.

Superhero games don’t work because comics and games are trying to achieve opposite goals. Comic superheroes automatically win or lose at the writers behest. Any PC that automatically wins is considered ‘broken’. The Batman has been dodging bullets for years in the comics. If he tried to do that with RPG rules in force then it would be Bruce Wayne RIP by the second night of play, and his player would be asking “How many hero points to buy body armour at rank 10 for Tank-King?”

The Pirate Genre. Dumas & Co were writing about the 16th century in the 18th century and we’re in the 21st. Sailing around, catching scurvy and murdering people because they’re from a different country is not the crowd-pleaser it once was.

Cyberpunk suffers at the hands of gaming. Too much cyber, not enough punk. I would go as far as to say that Cyberpunk sci-fi is a different sub-genre from Cyberpunk games, which owe far more to munchkin gaming & certain types of Anime. (And no, I’m not going to justify that statement.)

Fantasy games and Fantasy books, and by that I mean the sub-Tolkien derivatives. Scratch that last statement, I actually mean the D&D derivatives. I’m fairly sure that the strip mining of Fantasy and mythological concepts so prevalent in current Fantasy fiction owes more to Gygax and Dragonlance that to Tolkien.

Anyway, the pointy eared Fantasy genre has no mission statement. People expect nothing from it other than entertainment. It doesn’t have to speculate about the future or provide a social statement about the past. It just exists in a malleable lump of concepts to be twisted about for a particular writers’ convenience. Which is why it is so prevalent. It is the only genre designed for role-playing games.

This requirement to be accessible is why there are no good generic SF games. Blue Planet works so well specifically because there is a new world to explore and a strong concept to speculate about. A well done Star Trek game could do the same but only if the technobabble factor (and possibly the Starfleet command structure) could somehow be completely erased from the equation.

To get a good generic SF game you would need to create a standardised fictional universe similar to the pointy eared Fantasy model and them import a whole bunch of strong, new science fiction concepts that are reasonably interesting to explore. Only then could you get down to actually writing games that didn’t suck. Traveller had a fairly ignorable background but a shoddy system and little in the way of good speculative scenarios. Same goes for Spacemaster.

I’m not even sure where to begin. The only real generic standards that I can point to for Faster than Light SF are the Galactic Feudal Empires of Dune, Traveller and Spacemaster or the Dark and Gritty Future as portrayed in those straight to video Aliens rip-off movies that appeared towards the end of the 20th century. And frankly, as settings I think they both suck.

So how would you go about making a popular Speculative Fiction game?
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Old 03-22-2002, 05:36 PM
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Bailywolf Bailywolf is online now
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It seems your compalints are hardlt lmited to SiFi games...perhpas you shoud look into a less complex hobby?

But sniping aside, I'll answer you:

Good scifi has been done.

Most recently with Transhuman space.

Fading Suns isn't my cupatea, but many people like it.

Check out by Christian Conkle's LIGHTSPEED- it's worth a read for the inside jokes alone, but makes for great sci-fi gaming.

here:

http://www.mecha.com/~conkle/lightspeed/

Last edited by Bailywolf; 03-22-2002 at 05:38 PM..
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Old 03-22-2002, 05:36 PM
Evil Fungi Evil Fungi is offline
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Have you taken a look at Transhuman Space?
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Old 03-22-2002, 05:51 PM
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Samurai Samurai is offline
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Interesting theory... I'd say I mostly agree with you, and add a few things...

Fantasy tends to be more popular than Sci-Fi for RPGs for several reasons... you mentioned some, but here are a few more to think about/ discuss:

Everyone knows what Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, etc are supposed to be like. You have a basis for your character's personality, culture, etc . But what about if your character is an alien from the planet Wassolthop? Unless the GM and players are intimately familiar with the background material, you'll be at a loss. One option is to only allow Human characters... but how does a Human whose family has lived on Wassolthop for generations differ from one that grew up on a space station, or back home on Earth, or anywhere else? Surely the traditions, customs, values, and beliefs would be affected by this... but is that clear to a new player? And with all these cool aliens running around, why CAN'T I play one... and the whole thing begins again.

A related tangent is the monsters/ creatures you'll encounter... everyone knows fantasy creatures like Goblins, dragons, vampires, werewolves, etc... but what about a Mynock or a Srygrylak from the planet Medis Prime? Does that draw an 'OOOOH, cool!" or a "what the heck is that, and why should I be scared?"

It is far easier to say "Its magic" for a fantasy teleportation spell than to figure out "realistic" or "scientific" justifications and methods of use. You'll either have to use/ create the scientific mumbo-jumbo that Star Trek has, or just say "Its Science... accept it"

Which brings up another problem... game balance and progression. D&D magic users get more and more powerful spells as they go, but why can't your Sci-Fi bounty hunter start off with the deadliest guns in the game? Money? Possibly, but that means ALL sci-fi characters start out poor? And what if they are in the military or are a red-shirted guard? "Sorry, next level you'll get the Phase Rifle... for now, you can only use the Laser Derringer..."

Finally, on a related note, futuristic settings tend to be filled with Mecha, tanks, starships, massive enrgy cannons, etc... and how are you going to prevent players from getting their hands on it so as to not ruin game balance? Ultimately, the munchkin players will try to get the biggest, deadliest weapons and armor around...

Last edited by Samurai; 03-22-2002 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 03-22-2002, 05:57 PM
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Lizard Lizard is online now
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Roleplaying games do a poor job of imitating literature.

Team sports do a poor job of imitating battlefield warfare.

When you understand what these two statements have in common, grasshopper, you will be ready.
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  #6  
Old 03-22-2002, 06:30 PM
Epoch Epoch is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lizard
Roleplaying games do a poor job of imitating literature.

Team sports do a poor job of imitating battlefield warfare.

When you understand what these two statements have in common, grasshopper, you will be ready.
Man, I've been agreeing with Lizard so much, lately, that I'm going to be in danger of people thinking I'm his sock-puppet.
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Old 03-22-2002, 06:33 PM
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Could you tell us why planet Earth sucks, next, please? Then existence itself, then your mom.
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Old 03-22-2002, 06:45 PM
Nick Nick is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Epoch


Man, I've been agreeing with Lizard so much, lately, that I'm going to be in danger of people thinking I'm his sock-puppet.

You know, i was really shocked by this, and getting ready to bitch mightily... untill I realised I miss-read the word 'sock'....



Nick
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  #9  
Old 03-22-2002, 07:18 PM
RobertEdwards RobertEdwards is offline
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It's all relative

Quote:
Originally posted by Samurai

Finally, on a related note, futuristic settings tend to be filled with Mecha, tanks, starships, massive enrgy cannons, etc... and how are you going to prevent players from getting their hands on it so as to not ruin game balance? Ultimately, the munchkin players will try to get the biggest, deadliest weapons and armor around...

In a tactical sense, firepower does not matter. Only advantage and risk related to different levels of offense, mobility, and defense matters. As long as the Player character can affect their environment, and the environment can effect them, the game continues.

The difference between killing a foe and disintegrating a foe is of little consequence. So it matters little if the PCs have magnum pistols or phasers. Both kill enemies dead. The Phaser just more so, and leaves no body to loot. For some munchkins, an acceptable trade off.

But the munchkin character can die just as easily as their enemies. Ah! But what if the PC has a force field? Well then, why would their opponents lack such a useful defense?

Munchkins can run amok in any environment. And in any ordered socienty, which are common in Sci-fi, the society's defenses can deal with those that run amok.

There's no difference between dealing with a munchkin Space pirate with a jet pack, a hologram generator, a forcefield, forceknife, and a blaster, and dealing with a munchkin Black Knight with a fast horse, a ring of invisiblity, platemail, sword, and a crossbow.

Now, if you want your SF game to be more distinctive, less like your old D&D game, there's the challenge.
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  #10  
Old 03-22-2002, 07:19 PM
RobertEdwards RobertEdwards is offline
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Lizard
Roleplaying games do a poor job of imitating literature.

Team sports do a poor job of imitating battlefield warfare.

When you understand what these two statements have in common, grasshopper, you will be ready.
You sir, are the MAN!!

Or should that be the DRAGON!
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