So Hitler won WWII. Where's the fun in that?

[DannyK]

I hope the thread subject isn't offensive to anyone, it's just to attract attention...
I was playing around with an alternate history idea the other day for Mage: the Ascension. I won't bore you with the details but just suffice it to say that in this timeline, WWII ends with a nuclear-armed Germany controlling western Europe, central Europe and much of the Middle East. Britain was knocked out of the war and has made an uneasy peace with Germany. And the USA never got involved in WWII, but now finds itself in a cold war with the Axis powers.

I rather like my scenario, but I discovered a big problem with it:
what kind of stories could you run in such a world for U.S. PC's? I came up with three types of stories:
1) Espionage (undercover in Berlin, etc.)
2) Counterespionage (chase Nazis in New York)
3) Proxy wars between the allies and the axis (fighting fascists in remote corners of the world)

I know there's other possibilities out there, can you help me find them?

[James Gillen]

In the real world, the Soviets were part of the anti-Nazi coalition, but as geopolitical rivals, they became the major threat to the US after WW2. Thus, American foriegn policy and culture took on a very rightwing, paranoid, "McCarthyist" cast. If the Nazis are the major peacetime rivals, the same thing would happen from a leftwing perspective. On the good side, desegregation and other reforms might happen even more quickly (to contrast America with the racist superpower); on the bad side communist style "reforms" might become more likely.

JG

[Merten]

Originally posted by DannyK
I know there's other possibilities out there, can you help me find them?

Watching the movie Fatherland (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0109779) might give you some ideas.

I'd fancy the idea of making characters European, perhaps even pro-Germany - victims of propaganda, if you will. To me, one of the most horrible (and yet intriguing) things is just how easily normal humans get drawn into propaganda speeches and the like.

A Fatherland-like game where characters dig into their own system and find it rotten from within, despite the heavy propaganda suggesting otherwise, and find themselves being pariahs in their own country, might do the job.

Alternative settings dealing with WW2 are always a touchy subjects, so make sure your players are fine with any of the ideas beforehand.

[Curtis]

Originally posted by DannyK
I hope the thread subject isn't offensive to anyone, it's just to attract attention...
I was playing around with an alternate history idea the other day for Mage: the Ascension. I won't bore you with the details but just suffice it to say that in this timeline, WWII ends with a nuclear-armed Germany controlling western Europe, central Europe and much of the Middle East. Britain was knocked out of the war and has made an uneasy peace with Germany. And the USA never got involved in WWII, but now finds itself in a cold war with the Axis powers.

I rather like my scenario, but I discovered a big problem with it:
what kind of stories could you run in such a world for U.S. PC's? I came up with three types of stories:
1) Espionage (undercover in Berlin, etc.)
2) Counterespionage (chase Nazis in New York)
3) Proxy wars between the allies and the axis (fighting fascists in remote corners of the world)

I know there's other possibilities out there, can you help me find them?

First a question, what is the reason you've decided to go with alternate history? Is this the main timeline for the campaign or just a brief diversion? What elements of Mage do you want to play up, or play down?

My most recent idea for a alternate WWII timeline is to have the Nazi's win, probably by developing nukes first and forcing England and the US to agree to a peace, and then advance the timeline to the modern day post collapse of the Nazi regime. I find the Nazi system possibly even more flawed than Soviet Russia and suspect it would have collapsed as well.

[Alias]

Originally posted by Curtis
My most recent idea for a alternate WWII timeline is to have the Nazi's win, probably by developing nukes first and forcing England and the US to agree to a peace, and then advance the timeline to the modern day post collapse of the Nazi regime. I find the Nazi system possibly even more flawed than Soviet Russia and suspect it would have collapsed as well.

I was thinking along similar lines: Hitler dies shortly after the end of WWII and his successors never manage to agree with each others, the German Reich disintegrates into several, smaller states, à la post-Charlemagne Europe.

In the end, we have a fascist, "Germanized" Europe, which is a sort of alliance of more-or-less independent states, but which basically hate -- or at the very least distrust -- each other. Get ready for WWIII...

[Max S.]

Well, first of all, dealing with Mage:

The Technocracy will probably still exist, only they might all want mages to register with them and speak German and shit. They'd probably also go by something like Technomacht. Entropy is all about war; bizzare fucking creatures will pour forth from the asphalt like nothing else.

Mages will be divided on the lines of Who Will Fight The Axis and Who Will Wait The Axis Out, and Crazy Fucking Americans.

I know dick about vampires and their real-life pasty counterparts.

Werewolves will be fighting a huge fucking civil war. There's this Germanic tribe, the Get of Fenris; they'd have sided with the Nazis (a few did in the non-altered universe). 'Course, they'd fight it out on the fringes, in say, sub-Saharan Africa, Indonesia, and the like. Good fucking allies, if anything.

Kindred of the East will have spread like wildfire what with the Japanese success, right?

Changelings more or less the same, if not more so, and Wraths? What wraiths?

What about Hunters? It'd be neat to see the Imbued going around with real scores to settle against the tainted Nazis.

[SteveD]

Yeah, what Alias says. The Nazi empire breaks up, Germanic Europe arises. Racist policies are toned down. After a while, everyone forgets about the genocide and the world generally things that although the war was regrettable, things are pretty okay now.

Then run any scenario you want.

I think you should choose the stories you want to tell FIRST, then design the world to suit. No?

Steve

Fatherlands central conflict - the discovery by Germans that the genocide not only happened but was succesfully covered up until the 80's - is a very strong one and quite a lot could be worked around it, I would think. Its a good movie and watching it would be a great source of ideas.

[NoCarrier]

Originally posted by contracycle
Fatherlands central conflict - the discovery by Germans that the genocide not only happened but was succesfully covered up until the 80's - is a very strong one and quite a lot could be worked around it, I would think. Its a good movie and watching it would be a great source of ideas.

Or you could rather read the book, instead of subjecting yourself to the horror of Rutger Hauer's acting...

[rauschach]

Don't forget you would also be experiencing a lot of terrorist actions in the various occupied countries. Probably not too much if the reich has managed to maintain a cohesive shape and not disintegrated.

If it has split up into seperate states you'll have a situation similar to Russia and Chechenya at the moment, but from a lot more areas. Not to mention the problems that the former Yugoslavian states are going through at the moment.

You name it they will probably be trying to settle old scores and even past debts. SIt back and just watch Europe burn