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  #31  
Old 10-29-2009, 08:47 PM
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Re: [Eberron] Save your favorite race from the chopping block

It's not gonna be much use for the orig. poster, but I'm gonna make a case for keeping my personal fav 4th ed. race, the Goliaths, in Eberron

Like the player's guide description, Goliaths originate from Xen'drik. But in my imagining, they're basically a race of "pygmy giants", analogous to giants what halflings are to humans and gnomes are to eladrin. During the Age of Giants, they were the "commoners" of the giant's empire - peasants, manual laborers, and foot soldiers. A few may have risen to prominence through their deeds. but while they were still technically giants and therefore citizens, they remained an underclass just above the elf slaves.

When the empire fell, most of the Goliaths were wiped out along with their giant lords in the elf rebellions. The others were reduced to mindless savagery by the magic of the dragons, eventually becoming ogres and trolls. Those that remained with their lives and sanity intact either fled to Khorvaire and adopted a more primative, nomadic culture in isolation, or went into a magically-induced torpor, hoping to wake in a time when the giants' empire might rise again.

This creates a dichotomy of two goliath cultures - the isolated, nomadic goliaths that closely match the PHB2 description (that tend to favor Primal classes), or a tiny group of anachronistic goliaths now emerging from their torpor to find their old life in ruins, but that still possess a remnant of arcane knowledge from the Age of Giants (that tend to favor Martial and Arcane classes).
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  #32  
Old 10-29-2009, 08:53 PM
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Re: [Eberron] Save your favorite race from the chopping block

Deva are the trickiest fit in Eberron. They're such a goody two-shoes race that they stick out like a sore thumb in the noir-influenced, morally ambiguous setting. It'd be like reading a Song of Ice and Fire book only to have Vishnu drop down from Heaven and set everything right.

In regards to Deva, I'm ruling in my game that there are currently no Deva in Khorvaire. If a player wants to make a Deva PC, he will be the one player allowed, and I will make it clear that he will be the only Deva in Khorvaire, if not all of Eberron. He's the first one to appear among mortals since the Age of Giants, and his very existence is a major portend in the Draconic Prophecy.
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  #33  
Old 10-29-2009, 09:02 PM
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Re: [Eberron] Save your favorite race from the chopping block

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Originally Posted by drnuncheon View Post
Interesting food for thought from everyone, here - and I admit, I took a little bit of a hardline stance in my OP in order to stir up more discussion.

I notice that very few people have even mentioned gnomes and halflings, and nobody's breathed a word about dwarves. These three races struck me as being less tied in to the history of the setting than the Warforged, elves, or even the hobgoblins. Any fans out there want to sell me on them?

And let me ask the reverse question, too - if you were me, who would you axe, and why? Some people have already touched on that…

J
I would keep Dwarves, but I agree that their background could use a little sprucing up.

I would stress their origin. Supposed they race came up to the surface from Khyber after their exile...

That's right... Khyber. Now, to most people of Khorvaire, that's like saying you crawled up from Hell. What would you have to do to get exiled from Hell?

That's bound to make some people a little nervous. Maybe that's why the Jhorash'tar orcs have such a beef with them. How would you react if a bunch of Khyber-spawn crawled up into your home and started taking over?

It also gives House Khundarak another reason to exploit the significance of its dragonmark and use it to curry influence among the surface races - if the sun-dwellers see you as a business partner, they don't see you as hellspawn to exterminate (mostly).
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  #34  
Old 10-30-2009, 03:52 AM
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Re: [Eberron] Save your favorite race from the chopping block

...Truth-damned rpg.net short login times! I have to type this all over again...

I'm not familiar with 4e Eberron, just 3.5, but this is how I'd approach it:

Basic premise: The idea doesn't necessarily need to be to reduce to human so much as to reduce to a minimum of humanoid races, and it makes sense that the races native to each continent are closely-related.

With that in mind, here's how I'd go about it:

Khorvaire: After the Age of Demons, Khorvaire became the land of the goblinoids. As mentioned in a prior post, the different races of goblinoid had a caste system that stemmed from their vastly differing capabilities. It's easy to imagine why the goblins in particular would get fed up with being beneath the hobgoblins and run off to found two other, different ones -- one that went back to savage roots and dinosaur-riding on the assumption that civilization was the problem, another that embraced trickery and Xanatos Roulettes and the pursuit of knowledge on the theory that the problem was simply that civilization was not essentially theirs. Likewise, the Gatekeeper orcs could easily become Gatekeeper hobgoblins.

Kept: Goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear.
Removed: Gnome (goblin culture), halfling (goblin culture), orc (hobgoblin culture).

Xen'drik: Some key backstory of the Eberron world happened here. This is where the dragons taught wizardry to the ancients -- giants with elven slaves in the original version -- who proceeded to make a vast empire, delve into darker and more dangerous magics as they went, fight off the quori of the previous Quor Tarai, and use their arcane might to throw Dal Quor entirely off its orbit and sever its connection to Eberron nearly completely. Then they had to deal with a slave revolt and mass emigration, followed by being nuked into the Stone Age once the dragons finished shitting themselves.

I submit that the story itself doesn't necessarily require the giants and elves to be separate races; the only thing you lose by making the giants elves is one aspect of the sheer shale of Xen'drik's ancient ruins. However, one of the cultures that emerged out of the slave refugees -- not the Tairndal of Valenar that people have been trotting out, but the Aereni -- is to my mind essentially elven. The Aereni believe in, and have perfected, harnessing the power of death, something that they believe is only made possible by the long lifespans of elvenkind. Shorter-lived races don't have enough life ahead of them to do more than hurry to get in what living they can before their own inevitable deaths; only elves can live a truly full life and overcome the fear of death, embracing it and allowing their fully-realized lives to potentially blossom into fully-realized deaths. Valenar only needs to be elven because it splintered off the same group, believing that the only lives that were truly lived best were those of their rebel ancestors.

You'll note that I haven't mentioned the drow still living in Xen'drik. That's because frankly, they're superfluous; any old elves who didn't leave the continent could have such a culture.

Kept: Elf.
Removed: Giant (elven culture), drow (elven culture).

Sarlona: This is the homeland of humankind, and in this vision of Eberron it stays that way. The events of the current Quor Tarai remain unchanged as well -- rebel quori merged with some humans to yield the kalashtar, the normal quori manipulated things in dreams to allow Sarlona's empires to fall apart and proto-empty vessels to be bred, the first quori possessions occurred and Riedra rose, Sarlona's own lycanthropic purge happened, and so on. As such, we still have, in addition to humans, kalashtar, "the Chosen" aka empty vessels, and Inspired on Sarlona. We also keep changelings and shifters, which in the Path of Inspiration are believed to be the steps just above and just beneath human respectively, not to mention that there's both subservience and rebellious revenge to explore in a Riedran shifter and changelings allow the presence of agents who could be anyone which in turn helps to further the creepy, oppressive vibe of Riedra.

Elans have a very different and very cool explanation in Eberron: they were once human, but were turned into living prisons for criminals among the quori. Elans are a cunning prison indeed: a vessel that the imprisoned quori has no control over, even as the elan unconsciously taps the quori's power to live eternally (and thus trap the victim eternally), among other minor benefits. As such, they fit neatly into the tapestry of the influence of Dal Quor on Sarlona and are best kept.

The Tashana Tundra could easily remain a refuge of rebel shifters, and so long as shifters are still around there's no reason why not; however, they could also be humans or even a mix. Syrkarn normally has a lot of half-giants and even Riedra normally has a few; however, there's no particular reason why Sarlona needs a "big" race, and logically if you replace the giants with elves then the half-giants should become half-elves anyway.

The other XPH races don't add much of anything to Sarlona's story. They're all more a case of, "This is the psionic place, so let's put them there!"

The best part? As always, Sarlona doesn't need to have any relationship to Khorvaire at all for Khorvaire's affairs in general to make sense. If you want nothing to do with any of this psionic stuff, they can just stay on Sarlona.

Kept: Human, kalashtar, empty vessel/Chosen, Inspired, changeling, shifter, elan.
Removed: Dromite, duergar, maenad, xeph (all superfluous).
Changed: Half-giant (becomes half-elf; ripple effect of changing giants to elves)

Argonnessen: What's D&D without dragons? What's the Draconic Prophecy without dragons, for that matter? How does the way the House of Vol died make much sense without dragons? What's the big deal about dragonmarks appearing on humanoids if the great, prophecy-obsessed culture in the heart of Argonnessen isn't dragonkind? The dragons were also big movers and shakers in the ancient world before retreating to their homeland here.

Beyond that, there really isn't much to change. The Seren tribes who worship the dragons are human anyway. All you really have to do is say that Erandis d'Vol was the only half-dragon ever, period, end of story -- which frankly makes more sense than the alternative anyway.

Kept: Dragon, human.
Removed: Anything dragon-descended that isn't a full-blooded dragon (since dragons find the idea repulsive anyway).

The Frostfell: While 4e Eberron's dwarves emerged from Khyber for, no doubt, some implied setting compliance reason, 3.5 Eberron's dwarves came from the frozen north. However, there's no compelling reason at all why they had to be dwarves -- they could just as easily be humans or changelings exiled to the far North to freeze to death long before even the kalashtar were formed (and thus before any other Sarlonan race aside from human and changeling existed) -- or even why they need to have come from outside of Khorvaire at all.

Removed: Dwarf (fill in the blank with any one of: goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear, human, changeling.)

Modern Khorvaire: It was Keith Baker's intent for changelings and doppelgangers to be one and the same anyway, so you can afford to get rid of doppelgangers as a separate race.

Half-elves have an interesting thing going for them in Khorvaire's culture; since they breed true and more half-elves are born from half-elven unions than human/elf unions these days, they by and large regard themselves as their own seperate race and call themselves the Khoravar. The fact that two of the true dragonmarks are exclusively half-elven adds fuel to this fire...

Warforged you're already sold on, so I needn't preach to the choir here.

Shifters have been argued already by others, and will I hope be argued further; as it is, I can't see what I could add to that part of the discussion at the moment.

Since orcs were changed into more hobgoblins, the question of half-hobgoblins should be brought up. Most of what makes being a half-orc cool in Eberron is basically inherited from orcs having been made cool. You arguably don't need to have half-hobgoblins to fill that gap -- just play hobgoblins, for truth's sake! They have even more past coolness to bring to the table; you can have not just descendants of Gatekeeper heroes, but of famous Dhakhanni warlords too, all in one convenient pining-for-the-glory-days package. As for what happens to House Tharashk... well, no reason why the humans who integrated with the Tharashk tribes couldn't still have developed the mark, or even why the half-race mystery couldn't change into a two-race mystery...

Kalashtar... to be honest, I've never understood why kalashtar are necessarily considered to be in Khorvaire by default to begin with. You could have Sarlonan affairs stay at home or not with equal ease.

As for all the new races? If Eberron could do without them before, it could do without them again.

Kept: Changeling, half-elf, warforged, shifter.
Removed: Doppelganger (folded into changeling), all the johnny-come-lately races (dragonborn, tiefling, eladrin, goliath, deva, etc.).
Changed: Half-orc (to hobgoblin; no orcs, no particular need for half-orcs or half-hobgoblins to cover the themes)
Optional: Kalashtar, empty vessel/Chosen, Inspired.

In conclusion (aka, TL;DR), were I to minimize Eberron's race selection, the list would be:

Khorvarian races: human, elf, half-elf, goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear, changeling, shifter, warforged.
Sarlonan races: human, half-elf, changeling, shifter, kalashtar, empty vessel/Chosen, Inspired, elan.
Xen'drik races: elf.
Argonnessen races: human, dragon.

Cutting room floor: dwarf, gnome, halfling, half-orc, orc, doppelganger (as a separate race), giant, half-giant, drow, dromite, duergar, maenad, xeph, half-dragon (except for Vol), draconic creature, goliath, eladrin, dragonborn, tiefling, deva, anything else newfangled I forgot.

Thanks for the mental exercise! -- Pteryx
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  #35  
Old 10-30-2009, 05:04 AM
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Re: [Eberron] Save your favorite race from the chopping block

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Originally Posted by La Maupin View Post
This.

Very much this.

Also... I hate to sound like the person who just bangs her own drum, but to understand changelings is to understand a little bit about what it's like to be transgender.

Not everything (dear God, I wish I could shapechange into a form that is both visually and physically indistinguishable from other women). But a little bit.
"You got your LGBT chocolate into my Killing-shit-and-taking-its-stuff peanut butter!"

"You got your Killing-shit-and-taking-its-stuff peanut butter in my LGBT chocolate!"

Two great tastes in one race!

I do love changelings.
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  #36  
Old 10-30-2009, 05:46 AM
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Re: [Eberron] Save your favorite race from the chopping block

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Originally Posted by Pteryx View Post
...Truth-damned rpg.net short login times! I have to type this all over again...
Wow…a heroic re-effort, very comprehensive, and much appreciated!

Quote:
Basic premise: The idea doesn't necessarily need to be to reduce to human so much as to reduce to a minimum of humanoid races, and it makes sense that the races native to each continent are closely-related.
That's not a bad way to put it, actually. Turning them human really is only one possibility.

Quote:
Likewise, the Gatekeeper orcs could easily become Gatekeeper hobgoblins.
I've always been a bit foggy on the necessity for separate hobs and orcs. Orcs just seem to belong with the goblinoid races in my mind - differences between them and hobs are largely cultural. (And going back to the source, they were different words for the same race anyway.)

I'll have to take some time to read and consider the rest of this. One thing this thread has convinced me of is to do a careful re-read of the lore with this goal in mind. A lot of people were more inspired by some of the races than I was - which was the other reason to start it up and get other perspectives.
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