Post originally by Vin Diakuw at 2003-05-26 13:17:09
Converted from Phorums BB System
A job well done Frank. In fact, almost a model for playtest reviews. And while I find Savage Worlds an excellent fit to my group and style, I believe your criticisms are spot on. Next time though, you might draw less flame if you didn't actually use the word 'sucks'
Re: frustrating - I have found similar problems with weaker critters as well - there is just too much effective difference between 36 Kobolds with a toughness of 6 (too tough) and a toughness of 4 (much better). A GM will need to develop quite a bit of experience with the system to throw together a mass combat and expect to be able to predict the outcome and time consumed.
Post originally by PatP at 2003-05-26 13:59:31
Converted from Phorums BB System
"Well, the fight was more frustrating than exciting. A Toughness of 15 meant that none of the party's weapons were likely to do anything to the dragon without rolling max and open-ending the roll. The Wizard emptied all of his Bolt spells into it and did nothing. Worse, when it did get hurt, it would just spend a Bennie and make a Soak roll, eliminating the wounds. Since a Soak roll is a Vigor check (and it includes your Wild Die), that dragon was rolling a d12 and a d6 and taking the higher result. Every Soak check it made stopped all of the wounds, making it rather frustrating since it took a really good damage roll to hurt the thing at all. The Barbarian was Berserk, but even his +2 bonus to attack and damage still wasn't enough to enable him to hurt the thing without rolling max on his 1d10+3 damage. "
Problem: the Dragon doesn't get the additional d6 on his soak roll. He's not a Wild Card. In fact, if you were giving the Dragon the extra d6 for all his rolls (not just the soak), then please give your player's my congratulations for getting out of that one alive.
So without the wild die, the Dragon now has a straight 25% chance of completely blowing his soak roll and his chance of getting enough raises to blow off all the damage inflicted has decreased as well.
By the way, who ended up with "Dragon's Tooth"? The Barbarian (d10 Strength, Berserk adds +2 damage) with the magic sword (+1d6 damage) wouldn't have to ace in order to get a 15 damage -- although it would require a pretty good roll. Add the +2 damage increases for any raises that you manage on your fighting roll, and getting a 15 or better isn't that crazy.
You also might want to look at the rules for ganging-up on a target in melee. Multiple attackers get hit bonuses, which increases the chance of a raise on your Fighting roll -- and any raises increases the amount of damage that the attackers inflict.
Post originally by Frank Sronce at 2003-05-26 14:35:34
Converted from Phorums BB System
No, the dragon looks like it's a Wild Card to me. It's name has a "Smilin' Jack" next to it, which I thought was how you could tell. You're right that it would definitely have been much weaker if it were a normal foe. They would have Shaken and then dispatched it pretty quickly then, I think.
Anyway, I guess I didn't describe the final fight thoroughly enough. We ended up with the Wizard and the Ranger on shore, attacking at range, and the Paladin and the Barbarian out in the water with the dragon, fighting in melee. The Paladin grabbed the sword (yeah, it would've been more effective in the Barbarian's hands, but he was more interested in the glory of the fight than snagging a magical trinket).
So there were only 2 characters in melee with it, and they didn't always both attack (the Paladin wasted several turns trying to get a spell off but was crippled by really horrible rolls) so they would only get a +1 at best and they wouldn't always get that.
Post originally by Mike Zebrowski at 2003-05-26 15:48:35
Converted from Phorums BB System
The Dragon is a Wildcard.
The dragon is tough, but it is beatable.
Here is one way:
Palidin throws mud in the dragon's eye. (Trick Manuver). If successfull, the dragon will be at -2 parry until its next action.
Meanwhile, the berserking Barbarian makes a wild attack which gives him a +4 attack and +4 damage.
The dragons parry is a 3 (-1 for the gangup and -2 for the trick). The average die roll for d10 fighting is 6. Along with the +4 bonus, gives the Barbarian an average attack total of 10. This is good for one raise on the attack for +2 damage.
The Barbarian then rolls d10/d6 +9 for damage. The average damage roll will result in a shaken dragon.
If the Palidin and Barbarian spend beanies to up their rolls, then it is possible to kill the dragon in one round. (If the Palidin gets a raise on the trick, the target becomes shaken, which means that the Barbarian will score a wound on it with average rolls.)
Post originally by Tim Ellis at 2003-05-26 16:08:57
Converted from Phorums BB System
I thought the Card based initiative worked very well in "Deadlands" where characters might have multiple actions in a round, and were therefore dealt a handful of cards (one per action), which made Initiative much easier than rolling a dice and subtracting/dividing to determine when second and subsequent actions would occur.
You are right that it probably does not add much to SW where each character only ever has a single action, although (short of both jokers coming out in a single round) it does ensure that no two characters are ever tied for initiative...
Post originally by Tim Ellis at 2003-05-26 16:18:37
Converted from Phorums BB System
Although the game does seem to be reasonably fast, I'm still not completly convinced by the efficiancy of the "Wild Card" dice mechanic. For every action by the PC's (or wild card NPC's) you need to throw two dice and independantly check the totals against each other and the target, and may need to re-roll one or more if rises are important
The rules also make much of the lack of book-keeping due to non-wildcard NPC's either being "Healthy", "Wounded" or "Dead" (not the rulebook terms, but effectively the case). Well to me that reqiures some sort of book-keeping, as each compatant has three possible states, only one of which is "Out of combat". The rules sneak this one past by suggesting you put counters or stones down by the wounded figures - but this assumes you are using figures to start with...
I think SW looks very interesting, (and I appreciate your unbiased review) but I don't think it is as revolutionary, or as efficient as it makes out.
Post originally by Mike Zebrowski at 2003-05-26 17:35:51
Converted from Phorums BB System
Taking the higher of two dice adds 0.5 seconds to the roll.
The game doesn't stress no book keeping. It stresses reduced book keeping. Keeping track of Ok/Shaken/Dead is a heck of a lot simplier than tracking hit points or wound levels. Even when played in the abstract, all that it takes is a checkmark by a NPCs name or number to indicate that they are shaken.
Post originally by Mike Zebrowski at 2003-05-26 17:41:11
Converted from Phorums BB System
It works well in SW. By dealing the cards face up, the GM can quickly determine who goes next without have to do a count down.
The cards also interact with the other rules as well. For NPCs, it determines when their own supply starts running low. In chases, they determine when a random obsticle appears and well as keeping track of seperation. Several Edges, such as quickness and level-headed also interact with the cards.
While everything can be down with dice as well, cards make it easier. Besides, you don't have to write down initative numbers with cards.
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