Post originally by Chris Taylor at 2003-06-13 12:06:15
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Very nicely done review. You hit on some key flaws, described how you would fix it (giving us a good idea of your preferences) and nicely summed up the positive qualities as well.
I'm actually intrigued about the setting because of this review, but I will really take your comments to heart. I especially agree with the overuse of jargon.
Post originally by Chris Czerniak at 2003-06-13 12:51:17
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I was curious about you mentioning the different bluff skills. I was wondering if the focus of the game was on deception. If this was true than it would make since to have a number of different skills for this kind of game. Kind of like all the combat rules we are use to, only applied to misdirection.
Think of it this way. A lot of games have skills like dodge, defend, mellee, guns, brawl, sword, pistol, axe ex ex to detail combat. Why not just have a "combat" skill to cover all that? The reason is because most games focus on combat and need that level of detail.
If "Promised Sands" is all about deception than it would make since to have all those skills. So, how much does Promised Sands focus on deception?
Post originally by Tim Gray at 2003-06-13 14:28:48
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It is a good review - except that you forgot to tell us what the game's about. Your comments about weapons etc, for instance, only make sense with the knowledge that it's a post-apocalypse setting - which you haven't stated except in the summary blurb.
Post originally by Chris Safruik at 2003-06-13 18:30:29
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Things you really should have addressed, rather than ranting so much about page flipping, terminology and art.
For example, you didn't address any of the following important topics:
How different is it from your "typical" fantasy game?
What is the apparent intended flavor of the game?
You mentioned "post apocalyptic" once, is it real world earth, or a made up world (e.g. T'nah. Is it another planet, or a new name for Earth)?
What are the races, cultures, et al. like? How are they different?
How does the magic system work?
How does the combat system work, exactly? "Straightforward and typical" means what, exactly? D&D/BRP style? Or WW style?
How does character creation work?
How unified is the system as a whole? Is it piles of different resolution mechanics, or just one that involves percentiles and opposed rolls?
You do explain the system a little, but not how it would actually work. Which leads me to ask, how does the system work? Roll under stat/skill?
What are characters expected to do? In other words, what is the premise of the game? To kill things and take their stuff? Or something more "metaplot/story oriented"?
How does character advancement work?
Overall, i honestly consider this review of little use to me.
Post originally by Brand Robins at 2003-06-13 19:38:57
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Really? I found it moderately useful. Of course, I don't generally read reviews for detailed rundowns of a game's world and history -- that's what publishers pages and back cover splash is for. I read reviews to tell me if the game works, what works, what doesn't, and why. While this review could have had a bit more of a look at the mechanics, it still gave me a very strong impression about the strengths and weaknesses of the game.
And I’ll take that over a lot of explanation that I could find elsewhere any day.
Post originally by Benjamin Rogers (BBRACK) at 2003-06-13 22:22:23
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I would first like to thank Gary McBride for his review. I think it is clear that Promised Sands did not meet up to his expectations. Based upon some of the things that Gary mentioned in the review, I think I can understand what he was really looking for and the type of game that Gary likes to play. Promised Sands is not that game. And I’ll be the first to say that it’s not for everyone. As I address some of the points brought up in Gary’s review, I would like to first point out that I greatly appreciate the time and effort he put into his review and wish to publicly thank him for his efforts.
Gary did not appreciate the artwork. Interior artwork was designed to present the world from as many different perspectives as possible. Just as one would sometimes write flavor text using the common phrases of the streets, the educated literary voices of universities or the frank and open phrases of the working man—-so, we decided that the art needed to show many different views of the world. We intentionally used the broadest spectrum of artistic styles we could find. Remember that art—-and what one likes—-is entirely subjective. Interestingly, we have received more compliments for our artistic choices and have had only two detractors to date—this review and Eric Rowe at Wizard’s Attic.
Attribute rolls were picked out in this review as a problem. A basic attribute check in the Trinary System is only used when no other skill roll is available—-which would indicate someone who had no training whatsoever at accomplishing the desired task. The skill system is not designed to force players down a path that they must use for their actions, but to provide many different pathways to the same results. Kick the door in? Roll against Kick. Don’t have the Kick skill? Roll against Running. Don’t have the Running skill? Roll against Sprinting. No Sprinting skill? Use Block at a –7SV. No skill at all that covers the given situation? Then you must resort to a basic attribute check. It’s unlikely to succeed until you try it several times and finally batter your way through-—with each roll suggesting a 3-5 second time-period for your attempt.
Eventually, you will get through—-but not immediately.
This is a design element—-the game is a skill/attribute based mechanic, not an attribute-alone based mechanic.
Because the game is based on skills, the mechanic expects characters to differentiate their training in the subtleties and differences between skills. As another responder has correctly pointed out, the skill system is expanded to provide many different methods to accomplish similar activities. In one particular culture, truth is vital. Those who are caught in a lie are put to death. Thus, they do not “con”—-and only the most vulgar would “bluff”—-but they use “deceit” to tell the truth while still deceiving someone. When they write, they use “misinformation” or spread rumors with “gossip”.
This wide range of skills—some of them being more important in certain cultures—-are available to all the characters. Just as all the various combat skills—-maneuver, feint, riposte, slash, thrust, etc.—-are available for combat.
Again, this is a design element of a skill/attribute based mechanic.
Occupations were criticized as being “unheroic”. Most heroes—-particularly reluctant ones—-evolve from mundane occupations. Not only do these types of heroes have wonderful stories, but they create drama in and of themselves. Heroes do not have to be super-human or highly advanced or specialized occupations. They can be Joe Blow who happened to come home and find the Djezinti had destroyed the farm where he worked. They killed his friends, made off with his wife and children and something within him snaps. He fashions a sword from his plow-share, nurses a jugal back to health and sets out to slaughter Djezinti and rescue his family.
He was a Farmhand. Not a swordsman. Not a Maroc. Not a thief. He was a “lowly” farmhand.
Now he’s a hero.
In Promised Sands, you can make that character. That character can help a community irrigate their fields on his way to finding his family. He can trade his skill with animal husbandry along the way for a place to sleep away from the wandering terrors in the desert. He’s *REAL*. He has a gritty, realistic feel. And he’s still a hero.
The character generation system includes "mundane" occupations not as "padding" (trust me, I'd love to have had the space!), but to present a realistic representation for "reluctant heroes". NPCs can also be created using this same character gen system so that they are realistic to the point of playability—-without simply being “made up numbers on a page”.
It is immersion, not "jargon". While some of the game does attempt to immerse the reader into the world of Promised Sands, the quoted examples are not—by any stretch of the imagination—“typical” of the overall writing found within the 400 pages (394 numbered and 6 forematter) of the book. The specific quotation for the Maroc gear was taken from the character creation entry wherein the designers expected the reader to be immersed into the world.
Our intention was to create a setting which is atypical of that found in the rest of the roleplaying world. It is not a “tunic” and “pants”—it is djellab and sirwahl. And we chose those words for a very specific reason. Had we decided to create a game using medieval Europe as our model, we would have described them as “tunic” and “pants”-—thus losing all of the middle-eastern feel.
Again, this was a conscious design element. The “jargon” is not as prevalent as the two quoted passages suggest, nor does it take long to comprehend and understand. We expected the reader who lacked a background with middle-eastern terminology to look up the words in the index, find their references in the equipment chapter (where one should expect to find descriptions of clothing) and read about them. This will also help the reader to learn where everything is located in the book without those nasty “please turn to page XX” references that break the continuity of the witing.
I must quote the review at this point due to something that is patently incorrect. The review states that: “There is one pointed omission from the game – magic items.”
And yet, in one of the quotes complaining about jargon, the reviewer mentions a magic item. “Any Rusahn can carry a shard of Qai crystal for use as qainos, but anyone caught with a Qai crystal in the shape of a blade had better be Qyen or Azili…or else.”
A “qainos” is a “magical” crystalline blade. It is capable of slicing through armor, flesh, bone, etc. by infusing it with the power of Qai. If that’s not a magic item, then I don’t know what is.
Additionally, every Maroc *must* possess a “magic item” known as a “maroc stone”. He cannot use his magic without it. Period.
While there are no “magic swords” or “+1 dagger of djezinti slaying”, there are, indeed, magic items and these are quite potent.
I would like to also point out that much of the “otec”—-old technology—-is considered by the people of T’nah to be “magical”. These are “magic items” in their understanding. A black powder pistol will be a “magical boom-stick” to some.
None of the races in the world are typical. We do not have elves—we have syl. And the differences are much more than semantic. The Andw’ahr is not a “dwarf.” Not all Kon’ahr are “miners.” And—-technically-—not all Kril are “warriors”. It is much more than a renaming taking place here. These things are quite different. They may bear * some * similarity to fantasy stereotypes—which was done intentionally to provide players something familiar as they step into a totally unique world. They are not, however, the same. Using the same names (“dwarf miner warrior”) to describe them would be wholly inadequate.
Which brings up one other point. This is NOT a “post apocalyptic” world. While there was a “catastrophic event” over 3000 years back in the history of T’nah. It is no different than the ice-age would be in our own history. It was not man-made. It was not nuclear in nature. It was not a great war. It was not anything that has ever been typified as “post apocalypse”. To call this game “post apocalypse” would be like calling Earthdawn “post apocalypse” due to the horrors and the cycling of magic in that world.
This is a complete mis-nomer and I am disappointed that the reviewer considered it a stronger element than the middle-eastern feel.
No sample adventure is provided. This was a difficult decision to make. Instead, we posted the adventure online. We will be posting many more in the near future. It is our intention to aggressively support Promised Sands and all those who—-unlike Gary—-would like to play in this world.
I am not going to reply to each of the posts about the review unless someone specifically would like me to make a comment. If you would like to do so, please feel free to reply to this post, log onto www.promisedsands.com and post to the forum (The Vahnaà Forum), or email BBRACK Productions for more information at: info@bbrack.com
Post originally by Flavius Maximus at 2003-06-13 23:11:12
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I think there are some very good questions asked here and I think that someone from BBRACK should take the time to answer them to help giv e a better idea of the reasons for the 'flavor' language.
And, quite simply, I think it would help to have a clear understanding of the mechanics given in brief.
Post originally by Flavius Maximus at 2003-06-13 23:16:26
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It would seem to me that such skills would be most useful in a world where it becomes important how you relate to the people around you. And I think that would tend to make a game more 'story driven'.
As one who prefers plot to explosions in my movies, I think that would tend to make me more interested in this game.
Hey! You BBRACK folk, how about a little info...
Is it more plot than 'slash for cash'?
Post originally by Ricardo Gladwell at 2003-06-14 02:34:36
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Do not fear Benjamin Rogers: most people, including myself, would probably be put off by the arrogant tone of the first couple of paragraphs of this review. It sounds to me like you've made a good effort to produce a game that has an original setting and feel, reminscent of Sheri Tepper's work. The fact that you've decided to make a non-d20 game is not 'foolishness' but, in my mind, shows a dedication to produce at truly original and valuable resource. Keep up the good work and I'll be looking from Promised Sands in my local game store.
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