With the rise in popularity of Supers games, it only seems right to tip our hat to V&V, the game that started it all! These many years later, you might be surpised at how playable (and fun!) this game still is!
Post originally by thwaak at 2003-06-18 11:04:20
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As a long time V&V fan, it is still my super hero game of choice. Maybe having 20 years experience helps. 8)
Seriously, for such a light rule book, it covers just about everything, and the beauty of it is that if you have to invent a new power or ruling, it takes hardly any effort at all.
Post originally by Wombat at 2003-06-18 13:00:23
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While I am not wholly convinced that the recent trend towards "absolute equality" in characters is the best way to go, the "absolutely random" factor of V&V was a nerve-wracking possibility as well.
I remember playing a game of this where I got (through random rolls -- not remembering exact names of traits, as this was years ago) Computer Skill, Riches, Animal Senses, Super Dexterity, and some sort of minor shape-changing ability (external appearance only). Not a single offensive power. My GM (who was a strictly By The Books guy) would not let me re-roll or alter a power, thus I had a character who could do very little in the party other than try not to get hurt. I did a bit of espionage work, but since most of the game was 4-Colour Heroes, I was the fifth wheel.
Synapse, you were an odd character indeed...
So, if you are going to play this game, have an eye towards adjusting for bad rolls.
Post originally by gebeji at 2003-06-18 13:02:33
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Even if i still own the game as well as many of its famous comic-like adventures, and that i've actually played it for some time, i wouldn't really recommend it to just anyone, as, like almost all games of that era, the game mechanics have sometimes severe flaws.
Not that it isn't interesting for people to know about V&V, which had, as you said, great Jee Dee artwork, covered a great number of superhero stuff, including some never covered before (like the trial of supervillains!), the great idea of making the player the hero, which made my games (and the ones i'm currently playing) really interesting, as well as giving some real (almost frightening) numbers in some situation ( like calculating how much kilometers far away you threw that villain's gun... it landed where ? Great stuff for the ego
However, the initiative system was kinda slow and was really ridiculous when you had a speedster play 14 times and the ordinary hero play twice in one round. Also, the ablative armor concept (a percentage of protection which was reduced by damage) was not for every type of hero, and the utter importance of weight in your hit pts calculation was deceptively unwritten, leading to some hilarious encounter where Adamantron ( a high armour, low hit pts villain ) almost exploded from an high impact blow from our resident powerhouse.
Nice to remember though, i think i'll go and get it out again for a read
Post originally by Sang at 2003-06-18 13:32:45
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V&V is cute in a lot of ways. Random power generation was very similar to MSH for those familiar. Some liked that, some didn't. I always loved the initiative system and used it as a model for homebrews (FGU always had funky initiative systems; I liked Bushido's too.)
The random event tables were so cool that they accidentally made it into M&M. It's an error I can understand, though, as I also handcopied those precise same tables for use in my DC Heroes game. I never forgot where they came from, though.
Finally, I loved and still love Jeff Dee's art.
That said, I think that like most games created in this day & age, it very definitely shows its age. I really think Hero and DC Heroes show their age better.
Post originally by SteelCaress at 2003-06-18 14:53:22
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I picked up V&V in its revised form, in 1983 (yeah, I was a little late, but it was still on the shelf). I remember it being a lot of fun except for justifying the random powers -- many times there was no real justification for the wide array you could end up with.
The other beef I had was the math. Yeah, I'm no slouch when it comes to calculations, but the large columns of numbers and decimals that you added or multiplied for character creation was really annoying. I wrote a program on my Apple II at the time to handle it, and character creation was a lot smoother from there.
The main problem we had was scale. Here was my guy, a martial artist/sonic scream type character with 30 hp, and here was my friend's character who flew and shrank, with 5 hp.
Most of the weapons listed in the game could wipe him out in a single hit.
I liked some of the core concepts (I think all your stats figured into your hit points), and if they could iron out the kinks I'm sure it could become something greater. The arbitary 1.8 times 3.4 type numbers could be smoothed out to something that would produce more predictable results during character creation.
Other than that, when it was first out, I had a whole lot of fun. I agree with your assertion about Mutants and Masterminds, though. Superb morph of the d20 system.
Post originally by grubman at 2003-06-18 15:30:09
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Of course, it wasn’t till after I submitted the review, that I read it for the 3rd time, and realized I didn’t do some points in the game justice. In an attempt to stay to the basics, I glossed over some of the points (95% in combat) that really show the games strengths AND weaknesses.
What I describe in the main body of the review strips down the combat mechanics way to much, some details are in order. V&V does a SUPER job of simulating super hero combat, that is a huge strength. The fact that doing this requires some math, multiple rolls and modifiers, and the keeping track of power (pr) are the potential weaknesses, not to mention the lack of a “central core mechanic” (sometimes you are rolling a d20, sometimes percentile, sometimes loose dice).
Above and beyond the cool Initiative system, I should mention multiple attacks. Your super hero can make multiple attacks against separate targets (suggested, one per fist, and, for martial artist types, 1 more per foot). If one of the attacks miss, they all fail. This allows a single super hero to put down a whole gang of “normal” thugs or henchmen in a round...which is as it should be!
It’s also worth mentioning that most characters and villains have a relatively low amount of hit points. There is an option called “rolling with the punch” that allows you to defer damage to power equal to your power score divided by 10. This is pretty cool ,because it makes you balance your (precious) power and Hit Points.
Another superheroish element that is lots of fun is the knockout rule. for each point of HP you take from an attack, you have an equal percentage chance of being knocked out. Keep that percentage chance down by rolling with the punch. Of course this is another roll that can slow down combat, especially for a relatively low chance (usually less than 10%).
There are also knockback rules that have people flying 60 feet every other turn. Fun, when it isn’t you!
The most important factor to remember is that every special action costs power! It’s fun, and doing the balancing act of how much you dare spend is a fun element of the game, but, to some, it might be a pain and slow down the game. For example, I’m acting for the second time in a combat round (2 pr cost), I opt to shoot my Power blast (Pr 1 per shot), and use multiple attacks to shoot at 2 targets (2 Pr per attack when using multiples)=8 power used this attack.
It’s a balancing game. Remember, no power, and your exhausted, can’t use any powers, and suffer all kinds of penalties. No Hit Points, and you are incapacitated. Out of BOTH, and you are DEAD!
While there aren’t specific rules for everything (like most systems today) there are built in mechanics to help you accomplish all the crazy stuff your PCs might (and should!) try, to be superheroish, like throwing heavy objects, saving your buds, and called shots, ect.
Once a GM and the players get a grasp for these concepts, it is a blast. But to players used to more “refined” systems, it may seem like a confusing mess for your first couple games!
Post originally by grubman at 2003-06-18 15:36:21
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I think most players abandoned the random super power factor pretty early in their V&V career. I know we did. We made characters based on our concept. As long as the powers were balanced and in theme with the character, I've found that players who love the comics don't try to munchkinize their characters. They just want to play cool characters like in the comics.
Of course, that said, the random tables can be considered a bonus feature!
P.S. And it takes a lot less time that point built systems! And is just as balanced with mature players.
Post originally by grubman at 2003-06-18 15:39:05
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It really does "show it's age" which is why I mentioned it a few times. But like so many good old games, some of the clunk is easy to ignore when you got all that OTHER good stuff.
It's an error I can understand, though, as I also handcopied those precise same tables for use in my DC Heroes game. I never forgot where they came from, though.
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