Post originally by Chris Czerniak at 2003-07-18 08:41:43
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I love the setting but Character Creation is anything but elegant. This is the first game where I couldn't make a character, much less the character I wanted.
First, too many things are random. From attributes to the gambling dice Qualities. It is possible to set out to make a beautiful cortisan and have her be extremely ugly
Character Creation rules aren't linear. I became extremely lost when I hit occupations with even more random elements introduced. I finally gave up, put the book on the shelf waiting in hope of a revised character creation set. I couldn't even imagine trying to help 3-6 players try and make characters. It would take weeks. The templates are real nice though.
I think something more appropriate would have been the character creation rules from Fading Suns which give you static points in certain areas depending on what you pick.
A couple other things irked me such as 4 out 5 uses of the disk were specifically for combat. I had trouble trying to figure out if combat was suppose to be gritty or cinematic. The system seems to push for gritty but the examples seem more cinematic. Finally, for such a versatile setting with many different occupations there seemed to be a heavy focus on combat.
"Promised Sands" looks like a promising (pun game but it is defianitly a first edition due for a second in a few years.
Post originally by Benjamin (BBRACK) at 2003-07-18 12:36:07
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Chris,
Sorry you had such trouble with the random chargen. There will be a point based chargen posted to the website in the near future (no, not <i>that</i> near...). When I get back from GenCon, I plan to put nose to grindstone and whip it out.
I will not disagree that chargen is complex. It was deliberately designed to be complex.
As for having difficulty creating the character you want, you'll get that with any type of randomization. Your specific reference to an "ugly courtesan"--I'd have to suggest that you apply more Quality Points to the Quality of Appearance, or that you choose to *purchase* the level of Quality that you want instead of just randomly rolling for it. Remember, you can apply as many as three separate dice to the roll and as many Quality points as you possess. If you are still unable to come up with an attractive Courtesan, I would suggest scrapping the idea of needing the Quality. Appearance is considered "average" <i>unless you have a modifying Quality</i>.
The difference between a Quality and Assets/Detriments can be subtle. Don't think of them as "this defines what you are", think of them as "these modify what you are".
You will find that there are additional uses for the DISk posted online. And since that was posted, we have come up with some other uses...
As an combat interrupt:
Bard: The Uzmek slams the log down on you...
Player: (*Tosses DISk*) I dart between his legs!
Bard: ...and misses you as you dart between his legs.
As a storytelling interrupt:
Bard: Chaos reigns. The Djezinti are riding in and out of camp at will, terrorizing the whole caravan. They haven't attacked anyone, but are only causing chaos and confusion. Then one of them reaches down and grabs a girl...
Player: (*Tosses DISk*) He grabs the wife of the caravan leader.
Bard: Then one of them reaches down and grabs the wife of the caravan leader. With their captive, the Djezinti disappear into the distance.
Remember, the primary purpose of the DISk is to interrupt and alter one minor aspect of the world. It can be combat, plot, storyline, whatever. However, most of this occurs in the thick of furious activity--and combat makes up a huge portion of that type of play.
Back to chargen: Most people who have played for awhile can make a character in 30 - 45 minutes. I've been able to crack the 30 minute barrier a few times--but that's a good average that most people settle into.
The whole point of the detail is to develop the character's backstory--whilc keeping every character somewhat balanced. If you'd like to bring up some of your troubles on the message forum (http://www.savagerealm.net/phpBB2/index.php) there are people there who can help walk you through the whole process (either myself or some of the playtesters).
Don't despair. If we can't make you love the chargen as it is (which many people do), then we'll develop one that appeals to your style. In fact, you could even help us to make it more playable for you by interacting with us on the message forum!
Post originally by Mapache at 2003-07-18 13:17:34
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It sounds like the percentile roll plus effect die is very much the d666 roll of In Nomine (2d6 for success or failure, d6 for degree thereof). Interesting that they're using that, given that a lot of people complain about d666...
Post originally by Arabian Princess at 2003-07-18 13:23:18
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I feel almost exactly the same about the game. My biggest problem also was the organization of the "story elements" I guess you'd call them. Lots of references to stuff at the start that hadn't been explained or defined yet.
As for the die mechanic, I think the idea posted on the former review of using the 10's die a the success die works better. That way unskilled characters will only be able to achive minimal success while only very skilled characters will be able to get the amazing results.
And I'm excited to see a point character system too; I'm always less then thrilled with random chargen. Otherwise the rest of the chargen is amazingly good. I really loved the somewhat randon results of the qualities. I'd like to see those tables even bigger.
Post originally by Benjamin (BBRACK) at 2003-07-18 13:49:03
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This discussion was had with someone else on the forums here at RPG net and the conclusion was that the use is significantly different enough as to warrant no real comparison.
One major difference is the fact that there is no distribution curve for a D% roll while there is a distribution curve for 2D6.
I still have yet to look at the <i>In Nomine</i> system to see it for myself, however.
Post originally by Benjamin (BBRACK) at 2003-07-18 13:52:08
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Arabian Princess,
What a name! You're a keeper!
Glad you liked the game! When we were developing the Qualities, I kept thinking how much more interesting they would be if they were expanded. I may try for a D% Quality listing sometime in the future to see how they stretch out.
There are <i>so many</i> nuances that are only touched upon with a 1-10 rating of the Quality...
As soon as the point based creation is available, I'll post notices here on RPGnet and on the front page of the website (not to mention on the <b>Promised Sands</b> forums.
Thanks for your comments! Feel free to make recommendations. I'd like to be able to incorporate the ideas of those playing the game into the universe...
Post originally by screenmonkey at 2003-07-18 14:13:43
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For those of us who like the setting, but shudder at the system (no offense) could you let us know about how many pages are devoted to setting material?
Thanks.
Post originally by Benjamin (BBRACK) at 2003-07-18 14:19:52
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Screenmonkey,
It really depends on where you separate out the "mechanic" and the "setting".
Advanced Chargen, for instance, has loads of information about the setting just in the types of occupations you can pursue, the descriptions for each occupation, etc. So, do you call that "mechanic" or "setting"?
I would say, however, that a good breakdown (if you consider all the pieces of information strewn throughout the mechanic) to be about 25% mechanic and 75% setting.
Yeah. That feels about right. And the majority of the mechanic are the multitudinous occupations--each with a little insight and descriptions for the way they fit into the world.
Post originally by Benjamin (BBRACK) at 2003-07-18 14:21:57
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Seriously, before you "shudder" at the system, try it.
Everyone who played it at the demos <i>loved</i> it. Many of them were skeptical at first.
Don't shudder. Try it. If you don't like it, then that's your choice and preference--but I think if you give it an honest chance, you'll find it's very simple, extremely versatile and you'll find yourself enjoying it despite your skepticism.
game but it is defianitly a first edition due for a second in a few years.
Linear Mode
