Post originally by ascendance at 2003-09-10 22:51:51
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"The idea is awesome, but the information was crushed into a paragraph when it deserved a page. What lives in there? What kind of crystals are there? What are they worth? If there's so many crystals just laying around, why aren't all the local people (those who haven't plunged to their death yet) living in houses made of money? Those questions and more sprang instantly into my mind, and I searched in vain for answers before finding out that there were none to be had."
Umm, I think you've missed the point of the gazetteer format, and the particular value of The Diamond Throne.
The point is, you're supposed to answer the questions YOURSELF. I don't know about you, but if you can answer all those questions, you've probably got a pretty nice setting and a few adventure ideas going. The Diamond Throne is meant to be a tool and an inspiration, rather than a book that lays everything out for you.
Post originally by darkbard at 2003-09-11 00:06:17
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i don't think the reviewer misses the point at all. he is quite upfront about the fact that DT is supposed to be bare-bones, yet he feels that a product quite as skeletal as DT is more a source of inspiration than a tool for the DM. certainly, how much utility any DM will get out of this product will vary according to individual need, but i don't think it wrong [or inaccurate] to point out that this product merely paints a few thick brushstrokes and leaves the detail work to the individual. the reviewer acknowledges that this was monte cook's purpose is design but also points out that this may be less useful than many potential DMs may desire.
Post originally by George Jackson at 2003-09-11 01:39:45
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Precisely so. The print version of the book is coming out with a $19 US price, and the content (in my opinion) is not worth that. Had Monte shoehorned it into the main AU book and hiked its price by ten bucks, I'd have lavished all the more praise on such thoughtful inclusions in my review for AU. For nineteen, however, I'm left with a 'where's the beef?' sensation. As I wrote, cool ideas are free. For cold, hard cash, I want details.
Mind you, I don't expect or desire the level of minute detail that can be found for the Realms, but I would have appreciated more details about such important locales. The areas that receive mention in the book aren't tiny cubbyholes, they're vast geographic features in the world. Since such features tend to have fairly profound effects, I would want more than a paragraph for each.
For example, here's a free cool idea: A vast desert of fine, ever-shifting sand in which rocky 'islands' float, and all of the cities in the area are built upon these roaming islands. Pretty neat, huh? Except now there are several vital details of great bearing to the inhabitants and neighbors of this desert. How do people cross it? How do they find any of the settlements when the settlements are constantly moving? Why is anyone living in such a freakish place in the first place? Those aren't minutiae that can just be glossed over, they're very important questions that have a huge bearing on that area of the world. Do travellers cross it, or do they have to go around it? Does that isolate some parts of the world from the more populous areas? Is it an army-proof political border?
So, bottom line, I don't care about little details, like the exact locations of abandoned temples of evil, but I do expect enough information to have a working world 'out of the box'. At least when taking the cover price into account.
Post originally by Chris V at 2003-09-11 11:45:24
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I don't agree that "cool ideas" are necessarily free. The d20 community has a great wealth of individuals who donate their time and energy to providing new adventure seeds, plot hooks, prestige classes etc. That's an awesome strength and I know that the community will never become fully commodified, thus providing a wonderful resource for people who wish to game but can't/don't purchase source materials.
However, people like Monte Cook have realized that some individuals CAN charge for "cool ideas." His publishing company regularly provides information that others might have given out for free, yet it's perfectly acceptable for him to charge us for the privilege of reading what's in his brain.
Now, is the value of this product worth the amount and depth of ideas one gets from it? It seems to me that $9 for almost 100 pages is a pretty decent value; $19 isn't. Of course, one must add several dollars to that $9 price tag unless one is fortunate enough to work for a printing company or for an employer that "allows" (or just doesn't know about) printing of personal items.
Post originally by ascendance at 2003-09-11 12:12:33
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I'm not sure the product was ever marketed as a complete world, out of the box. I think it was deliberately designed as a framework for GMs to improvise and work from.
It tries to be a lot of things to a lot of people, with tons of crunchy bits, ideas for using the DMG, Monster Manual, and miscellaneous SSS products.
Of course, $19 does seem a bit steep when I'm paying $15 for another product from WW. However, many of the content creators claim that their products are underpriced. Besides, you paid $9 for it, and printed it for free, so you should be the last person whining about the price.
Post originally by George Jackson at 2003-09-11 21:33:17
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Actually, it was $11 after I paid for the paper stock involved, labor was, of course, free. Anyone else trying to reproduce my little feat at retail prices would probably wind up paying at least the $19 that the print version would have cost them. Printing only one book is usually not viable, as most printers charge a lot of money as a 'setup fee' before charging a relatively low per-book cost.
That, however, is beside the point. I am not whining, I am reviewing, and for the bulk of purchasers of this book, it will be $19 that they pay, not $11. For those people, I have given my assessment of what they will receive for their money. If everyone could get it at the price I paid, I would have been singing a different tune. They can't, though, so I wrote my review from the viewpoint of the full cover price. I am happy with what I got out of the book for what I paid for it, but I'm positively disposed towards AU in general and got the book on the cheap, and am working to be as objective as possible for my reviews, so I had to be forthcoming about what I perceive to be its weaknesses.
Readers are free to disagree with my opinions, and I hope that everyone who gets this book enjoys it. It is however my role here to be providing information to prospective buyers so they can make an informed purchasing decision, and I feel that I have accomplished that.
Post originally by me at 2003-09-12 06:33:27
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Most liekly there will be an index in the print version. Books are printed in bundles of 16 pages and then glued together. 6*16=96, the PDF is 94 pages long, leaving 2 pages for an index.
Post originally by Rob at 2003-09-12 07:59:17
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"How do people cross it? How do they find any of the settlements when the settlements are constantly moving? Why is anyone living in such a freakish place in the first place? Those aren't minutiae that can just be glossed over, they're very important questions that have a huge bearing on that area of the world. Do travellers cross it, or do they have to go around it? Does that isolate some parts of the world from the more populous areas? Is it an army-proof political border?"
You're telling me you can't figure out answers for those on your own? I wouldn't mind getting some authorial intent, but you really have missed the point if you think all thse questions are accidentally left unanswered. I see all of those questions as grist for the imagination-mill. And furthermore, we are reassured that we will not later be told that our answers are wrong. That's great.
Would I have welcomed more detail? Sure. But can I get really excited about what I have and see the alternate opportunity it presents me? Absolutely.
This is really like buying a sports car and complaining that you don't like cars that don't have big back seats.
Post originally by Krypter at 2003-09-12 09:26:24
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>Umm, I think you've missed the point of the gazetteer format, and the particular value of The Diamond Throne.
>
Ummm, no, it's *you* who have missed the point of the review. The reviewer is exactly right. I can look out the window for inspiration for free. For money, I expect detail so that I don't have to spend hours working it out myself. I *could* make up all the detail, but then why bother buying any books at all?
>The point is, you're supposed to answer the >questions YOURSELF.
No, that's exactly the wrong point. The point of a campaign book is for the *writer* to have answered the questions, so the GM can run a campaign in that world with little preparation.
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