Post originally by Dan at 2003-11-28 19:31:46
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I think games heavily based upon mythology or religion should at least make some small effort to be accurate with the references.
Leviathan is a well known female dragon-like sea beast in the Bible, a force of nature diaplaying no intelligence and no worshippers. I'm not sure how anyone interested in this kind of game theme who has read any references on the topic at all could take this game seriously if suddenly Leviathan is a male alien who wants to be worshipped. Sounds like they should have just stuck with the antichrist figure, as that sounds like what they were going for.
But, granted, I'm only going by your brief description.
Post originally by Contrarycrow at 2003-11-28 20:26:57
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You really need to read the game before you dis it. Carella has done his homework and created a fairly tight setting merging elements ranging from the Bible to Lovecraft.
I may not be crazy about the Uni-System but the setting is one of the best "@!#$ hits the fan on a epic scale" catagory that I have ever seen.
Post originally by Dan at 2003-11-28 21:41:54
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"Carella has done his homework"
Rather poorly, from the sounds of it.
I downloaded an intro pack. Yes, indeed, this alien god who starts his own church is called Leviathan. That's like making a game about ancient Greek myth and having Zeus be a female cyclops army commander or something insane like that.
And to even use Lovecraft in a sentence describing a game based upon angels and the Bible is an insult to his name, in my opinion.
Sorry, but completely mangled real world references used in a game to describe something completely different for no good reason piss me off. They certainly aren't new in RPGs (The White Wolf line had some doosies), but I can't stand them.
If you don't mind them, or don't know enough about the subject matter to realize that they're screwed up, by all means, have fun.
Post originally by rayston at 2003-11-28 23:24:52
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A quote from a book.
The Encyclopedia of eastern Mythology by Rachel Storm
"Leviathan, the great sea monster, arised on the fifth world-creation day and was symbolic to the power of Chaos, vanquished by Yahweh. Later Jewish traditions tell that Leviathan has been defeated by the angel Gabriel."
Maybe the original leviathan was never worshiped, but it fought angels and symbolized chaos, as for male/female I am pretty sure they call it "he" for the sake of ease, being a cthulian like beast from another reality im not sure it would be appropriate to assign a sex to it.
Post originally by PhishStyx at 2003-11-29 00:15:18
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Well, I think it's really nifty how you assume that because Leviathan appears in the Bible as X, then it MUST be that way and that way ONLY.
There is surely NO CHANCE whatsoever of reimagining mythology to make it playable in a modern setting.
Now, I suppose that since you've read the book and know exactly what it says, you've got cause to complain about this, but I also have the book and know that it also contains a cohesive internal cosmology that covers why Leviathan (a "Mad God") exists as such and offers details on Leviathan and its "Anti-Pope" that render more verasimilitude.
In style, I'm sure you noticed that there are some considerable similarities between Carella's "Mad Gods," who seem essentially and entirely opposed to the universe as we know it and Lovecraft's Elder Gods; their implacable goals, their disconnect from humanity, their apparent level of power, all speak to similarities. And just as surely, you, an expert in the field, know that Cthulhu and Dagon and so on are just as much based on mythological sources as Leviathan.
I'm also sure that you've given equal thought to the various other mythological sources (ranging from Wiccan to Asian and more) that Carella calls upon to write his books of which Armageddon is simply the most recent in this line.
I don't know about you, but I find it the most interesting element of the line that Carella uses Judeo-Christian elements but instead of laying them out in a straight line as though Jerry Falwell had written the game, Carella suggests that maybe those early Christian writers didn't know everything and weren't always right.
Carella delves farther into what madness being a Seraphim must be, charged with protecting those ever failing, insanely corruptable, annoyingly imperfect humans. And then he goes an amazing step further and does just as well on the side of the Fallen Seraphim, discussing how they aren't necessarily anti-human, but their place in things has become a matter of treaty and establishment.
And that's only the tip of the 'berg and doesn't even reach into the other elements, the Kerubim, the Nephilim, the Incarnates, the Avatars, the Qliphonim, the Gifted/Ferals/and various other human elements, the Immortals, and various other supernatural folks.
Post originally by Dan at 2003-11-29 00:39:05
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PhishStyx wrote:
[Blah blah blah, CJ Carella is god, totally mangling things beyond comprehension is kewl, dude]
"And just as surely, you, an expert in the field, know that Cthulhu and Dagon and so on are just as much based on mythological sources as Leviathan. "
Dagon was borrowed from the name of a mythical figure and some common (at the time) misconceptions about what the character was about, but Cthulhu is NOT at all based upon mythological sources.
If you'd done your research instead of taking the word of someone who told you that but didn't know what the heck he was talking about you'd know this.
"I have done my research, and I like this game."
You are certainly entitled to like the game, but don't mistake falling for fanwank fictional material as actual research.
Post originally by b4d0m3n at 2003-11-29 01:05:59
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Leave it alone. Obviously, you make allowances for creativity. It's a willing suspension of disbelief, so who cares if names/concepts cross over. If you read the book, that's cool. If you don't, don't comment on it.
Post originally by Dan at 2003-11-29 01:40:22
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"It's a willing suspension of disbelief, so who cares if names/concepts cross over."
Only the people hopelessly clueless about the genre could willingly suspend disbelief over these kinds of errors.
"If you read the book, that's cool. If you don't, don't comment on it."
Read the intro pack. That's more than enough to go on. But, again, if you are the type who doesn't know enough about the genre to be able to notice flagrant errors (or if you a rabid fanboy for anything CJ Carella writes, and I'm sure there's tond of overlap), then, sure, have fun.
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