Dungeons & Dragons has be plagued by many demons over the course of its lifespan, none so much as the presence of devils and demons in its body of work. The Book of Vile Darkness tries to take a stab at being evil, but fails to do more than be a shadowy D&D book.
Post originally by Johnny McKenna at 2004-01-12 11:55:53
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I don't think that he's questioning the fact that rape is evil. I think he's more getting at the nature of the book. Why is rape, and for that matter all of these other things covered in the Book of Vile Darkness, evil? Just because?
It's one thing to say rape is evil and leave it at that. It's another to say, for instance, that rape is an evil act because is violates a person's safety, their sanctity of body, and their free will. The "Book Of Mild Darkness" doesn't go this far. It contains a number of tools that in the hands of a creative DM could inspire truly hideous adversaries. But as it's presented, it's really just there to throw half-naked female demon-worshippers at your PCs (i. e. the Thrall of Graz'zt iconic).
Much like the two new races presented in the book. They're like humans and halflings, but they're all eeeeeevil. Why? What happened to them as a society to do this? It's never explained, and perhaps they want you to do the explaining for them, but I don't trust WoTC products enough to leave truly mature choices like that to the average reader.
Post originally by SteelCaress at 2004-01-12 15:08:27
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And to take this topic further, is sexual deviance necessarily evil? Some churches say definitely *yes*, though I certainly would not paint, say, a sex addict as evil.
Like the reviewer mentioned, I'm one of those who would prefer to see the return of Orcus, and articles in Dragon about the environment of the Nine Hells, etc.
I would have preferred some of the controversial stuff to find its way into the BoVD while presented in an intelligent manner. All they've managed to do with their sugarcoating is create a question in my mind as to what is evil. Are certain races inherently evil? Isn't one culture's taboos another culture's superstitious nonsense?
It's kindy of a sticky issue...wait, that didn't come out right. How about a touchy topic? Nope...dammit!
Post originally by LoneWolf23k at 2004-01-12 17:45:17
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"Like the reviewer mentioned, I'm one of those who would prefer to see the return of Orcus, and articles in Dragon about the environment of the Nine Hells, etc."
Uh, Orcus IS in the Book of Vile Darkness, alongside three more Demon Princes and all 9 Devil Lords, along with cults and chief servants for each Archfiend, thereby giving you plenty of material for your campaign world. If you want more info on the Nine Hells or The Abyss, that's what the Manual of the Planes is for.
As for Rape and Pedophilia, I believe those actions are covered by the exemples of Evil Acts in Chapter 1: It's not overtly said, but I'd consider both acts to be "Bringing Despair" to the victims of those actions, as well as "Using Others for personal Gain" and "Bullying and Cowing Innocents"
Needless to say, I disagree with the reviewer's opinion: This book does a great job of presenting Evil in a suitably Dark and Impressive Light for a Fantasy Campaign. Is there a bit of a focus on Grandiose, Cinematic Evil? Well, sure, but this is Fantasy we're talking about... Isn't the point of D&D heroism about defeating truly dark and dispicable villains?
Post originally by Chris Currie at 2004-01-12 21:50:24
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This book also seems to be about dark paths that villians take to get power, such as the worship of demons and the like. Complaining about the lack of pedophilia is somewhat disturbing-"What, there is no Kid Toucher prestige class???"
Seriously though, the book does seem to explain the usual actions of Fantasy villians in terms of game bonuses.
Post originally by Dark Knight at 2004-01-12 22:59:50
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My main problem with the book was that not only was rape portrayed as an evil, but other sexual deviancies were as well, with no real justification. Why, if practiced between consenting adults, are things like sadism and masochism evil? The book presumes to approach things from a mature perspective, but does just the opposite, randomly labeling practices as "evil" just because, and in effect equating them with other things which are legitimately regarded as evil.
I'm sorry, I may not be a card carrying masochist, but I was offended in their place at the ridiculous description in the book, which I believe was something like "Masochists rarely walk around with full hitpoints. When cut, they scream or moan excitedly at the sight of their blood."
That has to be the most ridiculous caricature of masochism I've ever read.
Then there's cannibalism, for example. A severe taboo and unthinkable to most of western society, but the practice eating parts of a fallen foe in African societies is seen as an attempt to absorb their strength. Is this automatically evil?
Almost every concept in the book is like this. Very over the top. Which is okay for high fantasy, I suppose, but there's nothing to support it underneath. People are evil because they just are, and apparently that includes the guy who's so masochistic he can't pry that exquisite nipple clamp off. Evil doesn't come off as an insidious force that can claim everyone, but as some sort of immaturely sexualized mass of deviancies that would make a child titter.
There are some good aspects to the book, of course, particularly the tons of lists of various nefarious items, diseases, and prestige classes. And the book explicitly states its idea that some things are JUST PLAIN BAD, so it arguably achieves what it sets out to do. But it could've been so much more, a real exploration of why people choose to do evil things, or why some acts are regarded as evil. Instead, what we get are people with enough sexual derangements to fill a good sized bucket with no apparent reasoning in their heads at all.
I was left wondering who needs this to help them put evil in the game anyway. I find it hard to believe anyone that's interested enough in portraying accurate evil individuals (and mature enough to buy the book) couldn't come up with aspects better than this on their own, especially when the book's idea of making a villain evil consists of having them randomly have "perverted sex" with the undead.
Post originally by Radical Authority at 2004-01-13 02:04:44
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It's not a text-book on ethics and morality. I think the BoVD is DELIBERATELY cartoonish and light. The authors appear to have made the (IMO correct) assumption, that most D&D players aren't going to want descriptions of rape and peadophilia in their games. On the matter of masochism, yes it's treated in a dumb and cheesy way, but I don't think the book pretends to be anything BUT dumb cheesy.
I was never expecting a "mature" discussion of evil, and therefore was not disappointed. All in all, I thought this was a very good source book for running a PCs vs. Devil/Demon of your choice, giving descriptions of cults and the sorts of evil that are specific to each. Reading it imediately brought campaign ideas to mind.
Post originally by Dark Knight at 2004-01-13 02:35:35
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Yes, but then the question is, why the "Mature Gamers" warning on the front, or the rather grotesque interior art, or the specific description of torture devices, or any of the more gruesome additives?
I'm not necessarily upset that it wasn't pure evil committed to paper or anything, if I gave that impression (and reading over the post, I can see how I would). Nor would I be upset if it was a fairly lighthearted conception of evil in the grant old high fantasy style. What I dislike about the book is it seems to be a bizarre mishmash of both without ever really capturing either.
But that's just my opinion, glad it's working out for you.
Post originally by Patrick O'Duffy at 2004-01-13 02:40:26
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... that a D&D sourcebook on using evil villains and characters in a D&D campaign reads like, well, a D&D book?
That's not much of a condemnation, frankly.
I liked Vile Darkness quite a bit. It's full of useful ideas and rules for creating flavourful villains and moody scenes in my D&D game. It didn't advertise itself to be Nietzsche or Wittgenstein, or a Vampire or CoC sourcebook - and lo, indeed, it wasn't.
Next time, try evaulating the product based on what it _is_, not what you think it's _supposed_ to be.
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