Post originally by Not the foxed faced vagabond. at 2004-04-05 05:22:39
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You really haven't read the Dying Earth books have you? So, I think you'd find many of your game balance flaw questions are answered by understanding the context in which the rules come from. And that's by reading the original source material.
As to not knowing what a Sandestin looks like - whatever you think a shapeshifting magic elemental looks like.
Post originally by Big Dummy at 2004-04-05 12:07:46
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Hi, I'm the author. I'd like to thank Kirt for doing the review. We don't have entirely the same perspective on this but you did thoroughly look over the book and your critique was well thought out and clearly written.
There were unfortunately a few issues that you raised mistakenly. For example, you cited the Arch Magicians spell-list as being inaedquate, partially because it was missing the D20 spells with identical Dying Earth names. It was not, in fact, missing these spells. They are right there in the Arch Magician spell list on page 125. Please note, for example, the Charm of Forlorn Encystment (Imprisonment), Call to the Violent Cloud (Gate), Clambard's Reign of Long Nerves (Dominate Person), Phandaals Mantle of Stealth (Improved Invisibility) and etc.
At least one point that you raised was valid, there is a typo on the Vat creature section. The DC for the imprinting of the vat creatures matrix on it's sensorium gem should be the same as the DC for the Craft Wondrous Item skill check, as listed in the chart on page 111. This puts even the most complex vat creature well within the reach of most high level mages, and a relatively simple creature like a Kobold, for example, can be crafted with three skill checks with a maximum DC of 25.
Also, I would like to point out that if any DM feels that the Vat creature design system is too complex for their campaign, they are free to eliminate a step or two from the process. We made it fairly complex intentionally because it was supposed to be the measure of a magicians competence to fashion one.
Finally, in some areas we simply have different perspectives. Radl's Pervasion of the Incorrect Chord, for example, was cited in your review as an example of an unbalanced spell, because at the second level of power it could potentially disrupt any higher level spell.
First, I think you apparently failed to notice that the victem of the spell is entitled to a Will Save. I have to ask then, how different is this from the 2nd level Divine Spell Silence? If anything this one is weaker because of the speed check involved. The bottom line is that in both cases a Will Save with a relatively low DC will negate the effect, so it's of limited power and therfore, quite balanced.
Finally, as a fox faced vagabond indicated, I do think a lot of your complaints are based in not understanding the context.
Now I agree that in introducing this new milieux to D20, we need to explain it to some extent, which you admitted we did quite well. But this was only a Primer of magic, not an overall campaign sourcebook. It also clearly derives from this world of the Dying Earth, and makes that clear up front. The mechanics function regardless of whether you have read the book, but if you have more curiousity about the genre, it does seem reasonable to peruse the source somewhat.
After all, when Call of Cthulhu first came out, did everyone say Who IS this CTHULHU? Where is RLYEH after all? Where did CTHULHU come from? And deride the game for not having explained it all? Like Lovecrafts world, the Dying Earth actually hinges on a certain amonut of mystery. Not every jot and tittle is defined to the nth degree. Some things are left to the DM to decide or interpret.
I believe that many of the minor issues of this sort should be fairly easy to suss out. The Sandestin, for example has the ability to alter self at will, and greater sandestin can polymorph self at will. This is a pretty good hint as to their malleability of form.
All this said however, we will be posting a PDF to the Dying Earth website within the next few days which will provide a great deal of information on the Sandestin and numerous other subjects, plus a few unexpected surprises. We will in fact address any question anyone has on the Primer or the Dying Earth. There is also an ongoing thread on ENworld wherin any such questions will be addressed.
Post originally by Big Dummy at 2004-04-05 12:09:26
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Hi, I'm the author. I'd like to thank Kirt for doing the review. We don't have entirely the same perspective on this but you did thoroughly look over the book and your critique was well thought out and clearly written.
There were unfortunately a few issues that you raised mistakenly. For example, you cited the Arch Magicians spell-list as being inaedquate, partially because it was missing the D20 spells with identical Dying Earth names. It was not, in fact, missing these spells. They are right there in the Arch Magician spell list on page 125. Please note, for example, the Charm of Forlorn Encystment (Imprisonment), Call to the Violent Cloud (Gate), Clambard's Reign of Long Nerves (Dominate Person), Phandaals Mantle of Stealth (Improved Invisibility) and etc.
At least one point that you raised was valid, there is a typo on the Vat creature section. The DC for the imprinting of the vat creatures matrix on it's sensorium gem should be the same as the DC for the Craft Wondrous Item skill check, as listed in the chart on page 111. This puts even the most complex vat creature well within the reach of most high level mages, and a relatively simple creature like a Kobold, for example, can be crafted with three skill checks with a maximum DC of 25.
Also, I would like to point out that if any DM feels that the Vat creature design system is too complex for their campaign, they are free to eliminate a step or two from the process. We made it fairly complex intentionally because it was supposed to be the measure of a magicians competence to fashion one.
Finally, in some areas we simply have different perspectives. Radl's Pervasion of the Incorrect Chord, for example, was cited in your review as an example of an unbalanced spell, because at the second level of power it could potentially disrupt any higher level spell.
First, I think you apparently failed to notice that the victem of the spell is entitled to a Will Save. I have to ask then, how different is this from the 2nd level Divine Spell Silence? If anything this one is weaker because of the speed check involved. The bottom line is that in both cases a Will Save with a relatively low DC will negate the effect, so it's of limited power and therfore, quite balanced.
Finally, as a fox faced vagabond indicated, I do think a lot of your complaints are based in not understanding the context.
Now I agree that in introducing this new milieux to D20, we need to explain it to some extent, which you admitted we did quite well. But this was only a Primer of magic, not an overall campaign sourcebook. It also clearly derives from this world of the Dying Earth, and makes that clear up front. The mechanics function regardless of whether you have read the book, but if you have more curiousity about the genre, it does seem reasonable to peruse the source somewhat.
After all, when Call of Cthulhu first came out, did everyone say Who IS this CTHULHU? Where is RLYEH after all? Where did CTHULHU come from? And deride the game for not having explained it all? Like Lovecrafts world, the Dying Earth actually hinges on a certain amonut of mystery. Not every jot and tittle is defined to the nth degree. Some things are left to the DM to decide or interpret.
I believe that many of the minor issues of this sort should be fairly easy to suss out. The Sandestin, for example has the ability to alter self at will, and greater sandestin can polymorph self at will. This is a pretty good hint as to their malleability of form.
All this said however, we will be posting a PDF to the Dying Earth website within the next few days which will provide a great deal of information on the Sandestin and numerous other subjects, plus a few unexpected surprises. We will in fact address any question anyone has on the Primer or the Dying Earth. There is also an ongoing thread on ENworld wherin any such questions will be addressed.
Post originally by Simon Rogers at 2004-04-06 03:11:10
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Thanks for the review. The author is understandably defensive about his work; I ask you to look with magnanimity on his over-zealous response.
I think you do make some good points worthy of addressing.
We will provide on our website more information about sandestins and more detailed descriptions of the creatures mentioned in the Primer.
We will address the issue of temporal paradox, already covered in the main rules. We will take a look at the spells you mention and check them for balance. The Dying Earth has a slightly different take on descriptions - the author deliberately leaves a lot to the imagination. Rather than providing the inside leg measurement of a deodand, we instead state what is known, and then offer scholarly conjectures as to its nature, so that the GM can decide which to use. This ambiguity is also reflected in some (a very few) spell descriptions.
I realise that this take on fantasy is not entirely appropriate for all d20 campaigns, and we will endeavour to resolve any vagueness in spell descriptions, or lack of balance in free material on our website.
As this is the only source of negative opinion of the Primer we have encountered, we would be grateful to anyone else who finds issues with any aspect of the book, so that the author can update his errata with corrections or clarification as appropriate.
Another, more positive view of the Primer can be found at
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10222.phtml
Post originally by Kirt Dankmyer at 2004-04-14 09:22:13
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Well, I admit in my review that I haven't read the Dying Earth novels. And, frankly, if I wanted a game with a Dying Earth sort of flavor, I'd run the Dying Earth RPG, and not d20. My expectations for d20 are very different from my expectations for other games.
Also, I think you should read the Call of Cthulhu d20 rulebook in light of your comments. I assure you that it's quite detailed about the Mythos, including statistics for Mythos creatures. I think that that book stands as an excellent example of adapting material from another RPG to a d20 context.
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