You’ve read about it in literature class. Probably seen the movie. Now enter the Gates of Troy, for if Helen was the face that launched a thousand ships then this should be the supplement that launches a thousand hours of game play, right? Perhaps. Only one way to find out, read the review.
Post originally by Matt Stevens at 2004-07-02 07:09:28
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<i>So just about every ancient Greek was an illiterate oaf, really? How then to explain the likes of Aristophanes, Solon... and all the other noted poets, philosophers, orators, and assorted sages?<i>
I'm not sure I should comment on a supplement I haven't read, but... In late Bronze Age Greece, circa 1200 BC, the overwhelming majority <i>were</i> illiterate. The great philosophers, playwrights, poets, etc. came from a much later period.
Post originally by Kester Pelagius at 2004-07-02 10:46:16
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>>I'm not sure I should comment on a supplement I haven't read, but... In late Bronze Age Greece, circa 1200 BC, the overwhelming majority were illiterate. The great philosophers, playwrights, poets, etc. came from a much later period.<<
Perhaps, yet literacy does not spring out of a void. Witness the Linear-A and Linear-B scripts. Tablets bearing the inscriptions of said scripts have been found both on Crete and Mainland Greece, though the largest finds have, I believe, have come from the excavations at Pylos and Knossos. Thus indicating scripts, and thus by extention a literacy of some form, were in place during the Mycenean period.
Post originally by Kester Pelagius at 2004-07-02 11:06:01
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>>Yes, they had writting. I didn't say all the Mycenean Greeks were illiterate. I said the overwhelming majority were. Big difference.<<
True.
However this supplement states it is not supposed to be "historical" but rather is attempting to present "Heroic Greece". Unless D&D has changed significantly since last I checked, the core rules are not really intended to simulate an setting where the majority of the character types are illiterates, are they?
As I state in the review Gates of Troy has it's good points and it's bad. To this latter point a set of rules for how characters gain literarcy might have been helpful, then again so would using a Hellenic class system. Perhaps link literacy to standing, or "Fame". . .
Post originally by Matt Stevens at 2004-07-02 11:23:10
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That's a completely different objection. But I'll bite: Sure, D&D assumes (most) player-characters are literate. It also assumes they live in a pseudo-Medieval culture with dwarves, elves and halflings. Obviously charges are needed if you want to game in Mycenean Greece, and illiteracy is perfectly compatible with "Heroic" play.
Post originally by Kester Pelagius at 2004-07-02 11:57:13
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>>That's a completely different objection. But I'll bite: Sure, D&D assumes (most) player-characters are literate. It also assumes they live in a pseudo-Medieval culture with dwarves, elves and halflings. Obviously changes are needed if you want to game in Mycenean Greece, and illiteracy is perfectly compatible with "Heroic" play.<<
Not saying illiteracy isn't compatible, but it definitely needs to be addressed in more than just blanket statement blurbs. If you are going to mention levels of literacy at all then, IMO, you need to examine the social dynamics of the culture. If only so a GM can better understand how to set up said culture.
As it stands several erroneous conclusions could be drawn based upon such in-game blurbs. After all if everyone in Heroic Greece is stated to be illiterate, then how do Wizards gain spells?
On the surface it would be easy to say that Wizards are literate, but to me it would hav provided more depth if a modified magic system had been provided. Perhaps one that noted that, due to this illiteracy, Wizards have to learn spells not by writ but from another Wizard, by word of mouth, and commit them to memory. Thus, rather than a spellbook, a Memory skill/ATT should probably take center stage.
For that matter, if the majority of the peoples inhabiting Heroic Greece are illiterate, then by definition that means there are a select few who are not. Are the literate members of some elite class? Are they, perhaps, the Priests and Rulers?
On the surface such statements just seem like a bit of throw away fluff, until you realize these statements are supposed to be addressing an entire campaign world. As such they need to be explained. Give us the why's and whatfore's and, before you know it, you will have fleshed out the campaigh world and created a vibrant setting that is easy to lose oneself in.
Post originally by Decurio at 2004-07-03 11:11:29
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Let me chime in here: when talking about "heroic Greece" we are dealing with a period that has a serious lack of literary sources. Although recent advances in nautical archaeology are shedding a tremendous light on the socially advanced world of the late Bronze Age, we are, based on the literary record, dealing with a society that was for the most part functionally illiterate. Yes, there was is evidence of a "scribe" class (this is common all over the eastern Mediterranean basin during this period), but our evidence-the Lin A and B tablets-is mostly accounting records. E.g., stocks of grain, olive oil, tribute, etc. We have NO evidence of "literature" from heroic Greece. (incidentally, most of the records-not all, ask any Egyptologist-from this period are accounting records). So, if you're attempting to present a picture of Mycenaean society, its going to be mostly functionally illiterate. The beginning of what we would consider "literature" aren't going to be around for another few centuries when "Homer" composes his epics.
Sorry about the rant: I study classics at the University of Texas at Austin and see Dr. Tom Palaima (the man spearheading the translation of the Linear A and B tablets) on a daily basis during the semester. If you ever see him, he digs Bob Dylan
Post originally by Jack Fortune at 2004-07-03 11:34:57
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I would agree that most of common folk at this time were illiterate, but let's put this back into the game context. Since most players will have characters who are highly skilled, then I would say those characters would be literate. All of the priest and wizard (I can't think of any Bronze Age wizards. Can you? Anyone?) classes would be literate. A Hero, or skilled fighter, of this time would more than likely be of noble birth, so he would be literate as well. The only class I could think of that would more than likely be illiterate would be the thief class. Someone could play a common soldier that gains fame on the battlefield, but this is never done in Homer. All of the characters have some kind of noble blood.
I think the problem with this product lies in the fact that there was too much copying from D&D stuff and not enough genre specific content. A missed opportunity to create something really detailed and specific to the times it is set in.
Linear Mode
