Like the TORG Drama Deck on which this product is based, it provides an exciting new dimension to your Savage Worlds game - making it even more \"pulpy\", if that is possible. This product ROCKS!
Post originally by Ralph Mazza at 2004-08-11 09:26:21
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I'm finding it hard to imagine how you justify a 5 style to a deck of cards you have to print out and insert into CCG sleeves. I'm not saying that's not a fine and useable concept...but style 5?
And substance 5? For what amounts to a deck of random events which has been done before and doesn't seem particularly all that clever.
So if I have the Bullseye card then for one attack sometime during the session I can do double damage? Why is this particularly interesting or game enhancing?
How is that substance 5? Where's the substance? Yay, a new technique to make a game brimming with randomness...even more random...
Is there no meat to these cards? Is there no niche protection? Are there no layers of effectiveness that depend on fulfilling your character's own schtick before you can use the card? Nothing even of the sort "player must utter one corny one liner before using this card"...or anything?
Its just ye old random deck of cool one use powerz and tricksy effects? How does that make the game more pulpy...and how is that worth substance 5?
Post originally by Jamie herbert at 2004-08-11 12:48:48
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I'll agree that the whole build them yourself bit probably is worth removing a point fromthe style, however it does also offer an advantage unseen in the Torg deck. Firstly you can choose what cards to print and how to build the deck (offering a kind of CCG approach to the deck except you have all the cards to choose from) In some genres for example you might not really care to have "love interest" cards in the deck but more combat cards would be more useful and fun. Simply print what you need rather than having to buy a couple decks and sort out the appropriate cards.
I Will also agree that this is far from a new idea (In fact Shane Lacy Hensley and WIlliam Littlefield bot comare it to the deck from Torg. Before Torg of course there were whimsey cards. What this adds to the game is a bit of GM style control to the players, by allowing them odd moments of strength or even the power to alter the plot by playing subplots. Yes it makes thing more random for the GM perhaps, but then again this is all dependant on your style of play.
If you are the kind of GM who maps out every segment of the dungeon or every dialogue of NPC text, this deck (and hell while we're at it Savage Worlds) may not be to your liking. But as reviews are opinions, it is up to Mr. Littlefield to determine how much or little he values the product in question during his review. and just FYI I have dealt with William Littlefield in the past, he is a well known cheapskate and naysayer, so him giving a 5/5 must mean that he is supremely impressed with the product. He doesn't simply praise every product that comes along no matter what company wrote it.
Post originally by Ralph Mazza at 2004-08-11 13:24:11
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If you are the kind of GM who maps out every segment of the dungeon or every dialogue of NPC text, this deck (and hell while we're at it Savage Worlds) may not be to your liking.
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Well, I'm not sure what you mean by this.
First, Savage Worlds is pretty much ideal for high GM control map-out-everything railroad style adventures. Witness the Evernight Campaign book which is so much of a railroad the GM practically has to cry "all aboard" and "tickets please" at the beginning of each session. So if you are that sort of GM, than clearly Savage Worlds is ideal for that sort of play.
Second, I'm hardly that sort of the GM.
The randomness has nothing to do with catching the GM off guard. And my dislike for what I've heard of this set has nothing to do with not liking giving power to the players (something I'm a big fan of, actually). But these cards don't really give power to the players.
1) they give only the illusion of power. In a true power to the players game a player could introduce a love interest with any character he felt like, not just when he happened to have the appropriate card; and with no risk that the GM has removed that card from the deck. So don't for a minute confuse a deck like this with giving MORE power to the players. In fact, in practice it gives LESS power to the players because it sets the idea that the only time the players could do any of these things is when they have the appropriate card, as opposed to a more open, negotiate-with-the-GM-and-make-it-happen-anytime approach.
2) From what this review suggests of them, they seem completely silly and pointless. Why do you need another system of kewl powerz when you already have bennies and Edges. Why dilute the value of Edges like Dead Shot by letting any character get the ability whenever they get lucky enough to draw or trade for the Bullseye card? Hell if you get the card Bullseye is BETTER then Dead Shot, because you can use it whenever you want and not just if you happen to draw a Joker. No doubt there are other examples of edge duplicating cards in the deck. Point being, giving any character a random chance to get an ability better than one that normally has to be paid for, for doing nothing but getting a lucky card draw just cheapens the whole ability.
There doesn't seem to be any control over which characters get to use what cards or when (unless that was left out of the review) which has the potential to really violate character niches when other characters play a card that, however briefly, lets them outshine a character in their own niche.
Nothing in the review indicates how these cards actualy enhance the flavor of being in a pulp universe.
So other than providing kewl random one shot powerz...what purpose do the cards serve? And if the answer is "none really" then they ain't a 5 substance. No matter how much you enjoy using the kewl random one shot powerz, you can't give a quick and dirty little gimmicky deck of cards a 5 substance with out completely devaluing what a 5 means.
Post originally by Aaron at 2004-08-11 13:44:53
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Is this price correct? For a $10 PDF I'd expect at least 125 pages. Heck, I got Sidewinder for $9 and it was almost 300 pages. Is Savage World the Perrier of RPGs?
Post originally by Rag at 2004-08-11 13:45:08
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So we know there are cards like "do double Damage" and "Heal shaken friends", but what I liked about Torg were the "Not-So-Combat-Effective-Cards" such as "Escape", "Romace" and even "Martyr". Are there cards outside the scoope of combat and metagaming(looking through the card deck)?
Post originally by Jamie herbert at 2004-08-12 13:07:51
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Having not read evernight (and knowing that that is the only "scripted campaign" Savage worlds has put out and the only one they intend to put out) I completely disagree. Try 50 Fathoms or Tour of Darkness. Niether of which have any kind of the railroading you complain about in Evernight. secondly I don't see how one scripted campaign means that the whole system is perfect for this kind of play, by that logic D&D second edition suffers from the same problem (just read the dragonlance modules, which practically force you down the same path as the heroes in the novels) Personally I think D&D 2nd (or 3rd) is more than just one set of modules for the Dragonlance setting don't you?
secondly you miss the point of my comment. Players do not HAVE to have a romance card to imply a romance. By chance did you ever play Torg? These cards allow you the opportunity to play the odd and random events at a whim, and are not meant to railroad you or the GM into beleiveing that your character can't fall in love unless he can draw the Romance card from the deck. I have played with whimsey cards, Torg Drama deck and Adventure cards, and as a GM it throws curveballs into my plan for the night more than it does take away thier ability to chose thier own path due to lack of the proper card, which is not the point of any product like this.
The idea is that these cards provide the players a chance to alter the plot, say turn an NPC bar wench that the GM only meant to serve drinks into a love interest and therefore posssibly opening a whole new set of situations and complications. Other cards like Out of the frying pan allow you to cheat damage in turn for something worse happening (at the GM's discression) They add plot wrinkles in a legal way kind of like the onlooker who suggests that wouldn't it suck if an NPC guard came walking around the corner while the players are involved in breaking into the dukes keep. only this is done by the players making it feel more authentic.
and as for devaluating what a 5 means, I'm sorry but it's still based on opinion. William's Opinion is that they are worth a 5, yours isn't that's fine. According to what you are saying perhaps products like Spell reference cards,dice, and all sorts of other "gimicky things" should not warrant a 5 under any circumstances. a 5 substance should mean that the in game usefullness of the product is very high. despite the page count or optionality. If using this product increases enjoyment of the game exponentially than it was a good purchase right? and therefore should merit a high rating right?
Post originally by Tom Zunder at 2004-08-17 05:09:55
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Evernight is very scripted. 50 Fathoms is totally freeform. However these cards add to the gizmo, wow, kewl feel of SW. This is valuable, and for some of us we like that 'zap, pow, kerchink' gaming style.
It's very pulpy mechanically.
If you don't like cards like this then so be it.
SW is a very love it or hate it game in that respect.
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