Post originally by ~BA at 2004-07-26 17:06:59
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Just how useful is knowing about coniferous forests and permafrost for creating magical worlds? Also to what extent is the magical world integrated into the mundane world? Does it explain why magical predators wouldn't completely overwhelm mundane ones?
Post originally by Frank Sronce at 2004-07-26 17:46:03
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If your primary concern is how magical beasts interface with the normal ecology, I can't really say that this covers it in great detail.
I think the main thing on any magical predator is that, pretty much by definition, they'll require both meat and magic to survive. This means that just eating ordinary animals isn't enough to keep them alive- they have to put a lot of energy into acquiring magic, too, so they're not as effective of a predator species as their game stats might indicate.
But that's mostly me extrapolating from their setup; the book doesn't really cover that topic except in passing.
Post originally by Frank Sronce at 2004-07-27 10:40:14
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That's their premise, though. Magic has to be absorbed from the environment and converted into energy, much like sunlight. I know many settings don't treat it that way, but this book does.
I figure that since there's no way that they could possibly cover the hundreds of different ways to treat magic, so they decided to treat it as realistically as possible.But yeah, their assumptions may not match the ones that you want for your game.
The book basically describes how a non-magical world would work, then suggests a way to handle the effects of magic in a scientific fashion (e.g.- it's just another energy source to be metabolized).
So, sadly, if what you really want is a discussion of all the different approaches you could use to magic in your setting and how it would influence the ecology, this book hasn't got it. They use one fairly low-key approach and base everything on that.
Post originally by Conall Kavanagh at 2004-07-27 12:30:37
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>>>I think the main thing on any magical predator is that, pretty much by definition, they'll require both meat and magic to survive. This means that just eating ordinary animals isn't enough to keep them alive- they have to put a lot of energy into acquiring magic
That's an interesting idea, and is actually relevant for classical ecological theory. It is posited that all organisms take in energy and use it for two basic purposes: somatic effort (growing, getting larger, staying alive) and reproductive effort (making eggs, looking for mates, etc.). Trade-offs between these two lies at the heart of life history theory. With magic, there can be a third "magical effort." This will indeed encroach upon an animal's energy budget. It can drive animal's to either eat more and/or skimp on reproduction or body size in order to increase their magical ability.
Post originally by Conall Kavanagh at 2004-07-27 12:51:56
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I'm intrigued by the idea of magiotrophs forming the basis of the food chain (ie. primary producers) in underground and harsh environments. I wonder whether the book covers real world bacteria that can derive energy from rocks and nasty chemicals (eg. sulfur compounds).
For example --
* methanogens: form methane from carbon dioxide and hydrogen; live in environments without molecular oxygen
* chemosynthesizers: make sugar from hydrogen sulfide; base of food chain in deep ocean
* chemolithoautotrophs: make organic compounds from nitrogen or sulfur compounds; live in salt, water, rocks
These are just three examples. There are tons of other bacteria that do other things besides photosynthesis and oxygen-based respiration. These bacteria are crucial for chemical cycling, as well as being food sources for other organisms.
Post originally by Frank Sronce at 2004-07-27 13:21:59
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I don't have my copy handy, but they do cover some organisms like that, if only in passing. For example, I remember them mentioning some acidic bacteria that grows in caves where humans can't breathe because of the lack of air. I don't think it was terribly detailed, though- more of a "hey, here's a nifty factoid".
I'm not sure what a detailed description would really provide, though.
Post originally by Conall Kavanagh at 2004-07-27 14:27:11
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>>>I'm not sure what a detailed description would really provide, though.
Probably not a whole lot that's immediately useful for gaming. But mentioning that there are bacteria that live in extreme environments is useful to know, I think. Certain kinds of bacteria can live in hot acid, near-boiling water, on salt crystals, etc. Some bacteria can withstand radiation levels of 5,000,000 rads (where ~500 rads kills humans, and ~100 rads kills most bacteria).
Post originally by JRM at 2004-07-28 09:51:50
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Just to be pedantic, chemosynthesizers don't make sugar from Hydrogen Sulfide. You need Carbon to make a Carbohydrate, and there ain't any in H2S. The micro-organisms use Hydrogen Sulfide as a fuel, by oxidizing it, and may use this energy to make a sugar using Carbon from another source, such as Methane or Carbon Dioxide.
Incidentally, the micro-organisms that digest Sulphates use it as an oxidizer. They reduce the Sulphate to get the oxygen out, then use the oxygen to "burn" a fuel. I think most of them use Methane, but haven't bothered to look it up. It costs the microbe less energy to break the oxygen out of the Sulphate than they gain from burning the fuel, so they end up in the black.
Unless you're roleplaying a bunch of biochemists, this probably won't matter. However, as Conall said, these microorganisms could be the basis for a food chain in underground environments, some of which could be very hostile to adventurers.
To start with, Hydrogen Sulfide itself is a poisonous gas (as I learned in O-level chemistry) with symptoms resembling cyanide / carbon monoxide poisoning - i.e. headaches, chocking, turning blue and sudden death. According to the Emergency Medicine website (see http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic258.htm) "Exposures of 700-800 ppm or greater usually result in death".
Furthermore, H2S it forms Sulfuric Acid when mixed with water. There are caves in the Yucatan that have so much H2S and H2SO4 in the air that scientists have to wear gas-masks to study its chemosynthesis-based ecology (it still has atmospheric oxygen, but they need to filter out the acid). The caves sustain a lot of invertebrates and even fish who are adapted to breathe the acidic air/water. Apparently, at least one of these sulphur-based ecologies is able to support bats! (see http://www.norwebster.com/speleoscope/speleo01.html)
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