Post originally by Frank Branham at 2004-08-04 08:02:46
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Nice review, and thanks. A couple of notes:
The cards are coated, but *I* really wanted them on thicker stock with a linen finish. They are comparable to Adlung cards, both of which do feel a little cheap to me.
The terrifying thing about Muertos/Four Dragons is that it is so freakishly unlike most trick taking games (but does have a strong kinship to Twilight.)
Traditional trick taking skills almost completely don't apply, though--and the way I finally figured out how to play the game is by screwing up a lot. I've not even found a good way to teach the game because it is really is a game of figuring out what play is the least horrible.
You also hit upon the swapping, which is my personal pet peeve with the game as well. The card exchange between opponents is seemingly the most noxious, but it balances the hands based on scoring in a manner similar to the new History of the World. Without it, one good hand can wreak havoc on the final outcome.
The partner swaps turn out to be so useful to me in play with good players that I felt I had to leave them in. In my last game, I had the stronger hand, but discovered early on that my partner had no scoring cards. Mercifully, he also had a couple of swaps so I was able to feed him a scoring card and a high card.
Post originally by Shannon Appelcline at 2004-08-04 11:49:58
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<i>The cards are coated, but *I* really wanted them on thicker stock with a linen finish. They are comparable to Adlung cards, both of which do feel a little cheap to me. </i>
And I actually didn't have any problem with them. They were no <i>Bohnanza</i> cards, but they were on better stock than the majority of the card games I receive.
As for the card swapping: I definitely agree that the partner card swaps add to the depth of the game; it was really the opponent swapping that felt like it slowed things down unnecessarily.
Post originally by Darrin at 2004-08-10 06:35:54
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So, if I understand the description of the strategy (with any deficiency there purely on my part), this game boils down to:
If you don't understand how the game works you will lose.
If you do understand the deeper strategy, the gameplay is so complicated and hard to predict that your chances of winning are essentially random among those players who know what they are doing.
Post originally by Frank Branham at 2004-08-10 09:38:05
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If you don't understand how the game works, you will lose. Quite true.
I have only very rarely seen a beginner win a game against advanced players.
When you take bidding out of a trick taking game, the effect of the random cards distribution becomes far more powerful. In the case of Bridge, the actual play is not THAT tricky, but how to correctly bid a hand is a nightmare. (Find a copy of Avalon Hill's old Challenge Bridge, which is a serious challenge for even good Bridge players.)
The randomness in the game's outcome is definitely from the luck of the deal.
As you play, you gradually learn little tricks. And as you play advanced players, you can start to estimate which cards they may or may not have by their play and behavior.
And I actually do win 95% of my games, but a lot of those
are teaching games. (Although I do not partner myself with an experienced played if at all possible.)
I THINK that there is a lot of space for picking up spare bits of information, and learning to play better. But I could be deluding myself.
The bulk of the game is extremely tactical, and perfect play is rendered impossible. Often, you can see a play that is really good unless the player to your left has one or two particular cards. But it is a bit of a learned skill to know that quickly, as there is a lot going on.
The coin variant where you can ask a question is to help deal with that random aspect. I don't like to use it, personally because beginners haven't gotten their heads around what information to look for, and so the coins only get used by the experienced players who just crush the beginners.
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To give you an idea of the complexity, I created a puzzle for The Games Journal. A few of the special cards have been ripped out for the puzzle.
Post originally by Shannon Appelcline at 2004-08-11 11:29:49
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<i>If you do understand the deeper strategy, the gameplay is so complicated and hard to predict that your chances of winning are essentially random among those players who know what they are doing. </i>
From my plays of the game, I don't believe that.
It implies that strategy is a simple monotonic affair: you either know it or don't. I haven't seen any evidence of that in the game, and would expect that players can play at lots of different levels of expertise, just like most other games in the world.
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