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  #1  
Old 08-06-2004, 01:00 AM
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[RPG]: Book of Archetypes 2, reviewed by Dan Davenport (3/4)

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10541.phtml

Dan Davenport's Summary:

Now <b>this</b> is more like it. Eden's second character collection for <b>All Flesh Must Be Eaten</b> offers more focus, more options, and a generally higher-quality selection than its predecessor.

Go to the full review for more information.
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  #2  
Old 08-06-2004, 02:53 AM
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My little Index

Post originally by Godfather Punk at 2004-08-06 01:53:13
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I added an index of the available archetypes in a forum thread. Here's a link to the attachement:

<http://forum.rpg.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11295&stc=1>

I agree with the 3/3 and 3/4 scores you gave to these supplements.

Cheers,
Marc
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  #3  
Old 08-06-2004, 03:21 AM
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RE: My little Index

Post originally by Kai Tave at 2004-08-06 02:21:39
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"I agree with the 3/3 and 3/4 scores you gave to these supplements."

As do I (well, I agree with the review for the first Book of Archetypes, since I don't own the other one).
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  #4  
Old 08-06-2004, 03:22 AM
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And this blows, because I can reply to threads...

Post originally by Kai Tave at 2004-08-06 02:22:27
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...but not post one of my own, like I wanna do.
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  #5  
Old 08-06-2004, 04:57 AM
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Colin's Design Notes

Post originally by Colin Chapman at 2004-08-06 03:57:40
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Hey Dan,

Thought I'd share my thought processes and design notes behind the creation of the archetypes I contributed.

I wrote the Librarian, Lost Child, Mafia Hood, Street Fighter, and Voodoo Houngan for my own campaigns way back, because, well, as you picked up, they are Archetypes in the true sense of the word. Particularly identifiable character types that serve as well as NPCs as PCs, especially the Lost Child which I felt fit the genre very well.

Essentially I envisioned the Lost Child as the wide-eyed little kid in the nightgown, clutching a teddy bear. A character there as a non-combatant, an unusual PC, or (more commonly) an NPC (which archetypes are equally useful for) the PCs will want to save and protect. An archetype I've actually seen in horror films, which is why one complaint that it's somehow "quirky" puzzled me, and another point someone made about it not being very survivable made me chuckle (because, well, it's not supposed to be survivable; it's a Norm. It's a little kid. It's someone the adult PCs should want to care for and protect if they actually play according to the genre tropes). Similarly, one complaint saying it was redundant (because BoA1 already had the Tormented Grade School Student) has some merit, but in this case, I didn't personally feel that the former (while good) was as Archetypal as the Lost Child (one I envisioned as much younger, and certainly more pitiable).

The Librarian, Mafia Hood, and Street Fighter are all pretty obvious. The Librarian, especially an occult librarian, is a common horror archetype (exemplified more recently by Giles in BtVS), the Mafia Hood is uncommon in horror (although I do remember a vamp flick based around the Mafia), but it's a cool archetype and works equally well for modern or pulp adventures. The Street Fighter was partially inspired by Clint's Fido Bedo, but was largely created because I thought it was cool, and wanted an archetype that kicked ass, but wasn't a martial artist, wrestler, or boxer. The fun with improvised weapons was just an added benefit.

As for the Voodoo Houngan, that was created because of the very obvious tie-in with zombies; I was actually surprised the voodoo tie-in hadn't been exploited before. Obviously, some of the Metaphysical powers presented in other Unisystem books might've worked better, but I was following the precedent of the AFMBE Core Rulebook, and also working on the assumption that not everyone out there has more than AFMBE. I made it to work with AFMBE; not the entire Unisystem line.

cheers!
Colin
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  #6  
Old 08-06-2004, 07:30 AM
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RE: Colin's Design Notes

Post originally by Dan Davenport at 2004-08-06 06:30:39
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Colin Chapman wrote:
-------------------------------
<b>Hey Dan,

Thought I'd share my thought processes and design notes behind the creation of the archetypes I contributed.</b>
-------------------------------

Thanks, Colin! This sort of feedback particularly interests me.

-------------------------------
<b>I wrote the Librarian, Lost Child, Mafia Hood, Street Fighter, and Voodoo Houngan for my own campaigns way back, because, well, as you picked up, they are Archetypes in the true sense of the word. Particularly identifiable character types that serve as well as NPCs as PCs, especially the Lost Child which I felt fit the genre very well.</b>
-------------------------------

Agreed.

-------------------------------
<b>Essentially I envisioned the Lost Child as the wide-eyed little kid in the nightgown, clutching a teddy bear. A character there as a non-combatant, an unusual PC, or (more commonly) an NPC (which archetypes are equally useful for) the PCs will want to save and protect. An archetype I've actually seen in horror films, which is why one complaint that it's somehow "quirky" puzzled me, and another point someone made about it not being very survivable made me chuckle (because, well, it's not supposed to be survivable; it's a Norm. It's a little kid. It's someone the adult PCs should want to care for and protect if they actually play according to the genre tropes).</b>
-------------------------------

That gets into a tricky area. Obviously, I agree about the Lost Child being archetypal, especially for the genre. But as to the survivability aspect, such characters in movies general ARE survivable -- not through their own prowess so much as through writer fiat. So, the argument could be made that such a character would be more suited to cinematic Unisystem, with its Drama Points representing the writer fiat that would normally protect seemingly helpless individuals.

This isn't an argument against the character's inclusion, mind you. I can just see how the survivability complaint might be valid from a certain point of view.

-------------------------------
<b>Similarly, one complaint saying it was redundant (because BoA1 already had the Tormented Grade School Student) has some merit, but in this case, I didn't personally feel that the former (while good) was as Archetypal as the Lost Child (one I envisioned as much younger, and certainly more pitiable).</b>
-------------------------------

Again, agreed. The Lost Child fills an archetypal niche that the Tormented Grade School Student does not. Both are good characters, but the Lost Child is the superior <i>archetype</i>.

-------------------------------
<b>The Librarian, Mafia Hood, and Street Fighter are all pretty obvious. The Librarian, especially an occult librarian, is a common horror archetype (exemplified more recently by Giles in BtVS), the Mafia Hood is uncommon in horror (although I do remember a vamp flick based around the Mafia),</b>
-------------------------------

<i>Innocent Blood</i>?

Of course, even IF the Mafia Hood isn't a <i>horror</i> archetype, it's certainly one in the more general sense, and just as likely to be caught up in a zombie rise as is anyone else.

-------------------------------
<b>but it's a cool archetype and works equally well for modern or pulp adventures.</b>
-------------------------------

Good point, re: pulp adventures. I hadn't thought of that.

-------------------------------
<b>The Street Fighter was partially inspired by Clint's Fido Bedo, but was largely created because I thought it was cool, and wanted an archetype that kicked ass, but wasn't a martial artist, wrestler, or boxer. The fun with improvised weapons was just an added benefit. </b>
-------------------------------

Definitely one of my favorites. You know, I'd have almost been tempted to give him Martial Arts in order to represent the punishment he can dish out just through sheer skill. Of course, there's always the extra damage from success levels.

-------------------------------
<b>As for the Voodoo Houngan, that was created because of the very obvious tie-in with zombies; I was actually surprised the voodoo tie-in hadn't been exploited before. Obviously, some of the Metaphysical powers presented in other Unisystem books might've worked better, but I was following the precedent of the AFMBE Core Rulebook, and also working on the assumption that not everyone out there has more than AFMBE. I made it to work with AFMBE; not the entire Unisystem line.</b>
-------------------------------

Yeah, I can understand that. I guess my observation there was more of a lament about what <i>might</i> have been if you'd had access to the voodoo powers from the <b><i>Abomination Codex</i></b>, for example.

--
Dan Davenport
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  #7  
Old 08-06-2004, 08:28 AM
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RE: Colin's Design Notes

Post originally by ColinChapman at 2004-08-06 07:28:27
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Dan Davenport wrote:
-------------------------------

<b>Thanks, Colin! This sort of feedback particularly interests me.</b>

-------------------------------

You're welcome, mate. Thanks for a balanced and considered review.

-------------------------------
<b>That gets into a tricky area. Obviously, I agree about the Lost Child being archetypal, especially for the genre. But as to the survivability aspect, such characters in movies general ARE survivable -- not through their own prowess so much as through writer fiat. So, the argument could be made that such a character would be more suited to cinematic Unisystem, with its Drama Points representing the writer fiat that would normally protect seemingly helpless individuals.

This isn't an argument against the character's inclusion, mind you. I can just see how the survivability complaint might be valid from a certain point of view. </b>
-------------------------------

I definitely agree about the survivability via writer fiat. I can't remember off-hand, and don't have the book on me, but I think I included a few levels of that luck-like Quality (god, my memory is crap today) to represent that aspect to some degree. Drama Points would definitely work from what I've heard, though not really being a fan of Buffy or Angel, I don't own either of those books and can't speak with authority.

--------------------------------
<b>Again, agreed. The Lost Child fills an archetypal niche that the Tormented Grade School Student does not. Both are good characters, but the Lost Child is the superior archetype.</b>
--------------------------------

Thanks. I was almost tempted to make the Lost Child's quote, "Redrum, redrum." but decided against it in the end.
"Heerrreee's Zombie!"

--------------------------------
<b>Innocent Blood?</b>
--------------------------------

That's the one! Thanks for refreshing my grey matter for me.

--------------------------------
<b>Yeah, I can understand that. I guess my observation there was more of a lament about what might have been if you'd had access to the voodoo powers from the Abomination Codex, for example. </b>
--------------------------------

Yeah, I see your point, and certainly agree that if it could've been reprinted with all the voodoo rules, it would've rocked no end.
C'est la vie, I guess. Still, it shouldn't be too difficult to modify for anyone who owns the AC, hopefully.

Again, thanks for the considered review and comments.

cheers!
Colin
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  #8  
Old 08-06-2004, 09:28 AM
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Another great review!

Post originally by flyingmice at 2004-08-06 08:28:09
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Thanks, Dan! Another classic review. You always seem to get right to the important stuff! This one had no "pink iguana," but I think you ought to teach a course on "How to write reviews." Solid stuff!

-mice
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  #9  
Old 08-06-2004, 10:26 AM
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RE: Another great review!

Post originally by Dan Davenport at 2004-08-06 09:26:34
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flyingmice wrote:
-------------------------------
<b>Thanks, Dan! Another classic review. You always seem to get right to the important stuff! This one had no "pink iguana," but I think you ought to teach a course on "How to write reviews." Solid stuff!</b>
-------------------------------

Thanks! I'd be glad to, although I don't imagine there'd be much of a market for it.

--
Dan Davenport
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  #10  
Old 08-07-2004, 06:15 PM
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Clarifications II

Post originally by Breakdancing Zombie at 2004-08-07 17:15:39
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1) Criminologist and Homicide Detective (as well as the Survivalist College Student) were all products of me thinking of ordinary or semi-ordinary people that could/would be exposed to the rise early on. Essentially, how would a homicide detective and a forensic investigator deal with this kind of problem in the early rise.

2) The Repetant Ninja was actually written before ETZ came out. After it did I came out with a "remix" using the ETZ rules. For one reason or another I forgot to submit both versions.

3) The Invisibility Metaphysic was, like the rest of the Repentant Ninja Arcehtype, was created before ETZ came out. Sorry for the overlap.

4) Lastly, with the Spirit Ally; I guess all I can say is sorry about not providing rules. When I had people look at them previously no one ever brought forth the idea, and I personally couldn't think of a good way to do it at the time. Secondly, considering most of my pre-editing work comes out at about twice the allowed maximum, I was a bit wary of adding even more material to the count of stuff that might need to get cut down to being with. Once again, sorry they're not up to standard.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Best,
Evin
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