\"In a world -gone mad- with attacks of opprotunity and charms, three men must -redefine- the face of gaming with a system so -ancient-, it hasn't been revised in -twenty years-...\" Is this the summer blockbuster we've been looking for?
You may want to include edition version in article
Post originally by ghost2020 at 2004-09-10 06:10:12
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You may want to include which version of the game is getting reviewed in the article's title. Just so the casual glancer doesn't pass it over, I almost did.
Post originally by Dan Martland at 2004-09-10 07:27:18
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I am currently reading my way through the 4th Edition rules, and I thought I would just comment on the Schroedinger's Advantage and other, related ablities (there are three types of unknown advantage listed in the book).
I think the review paints an overly negative view of this mechanic. Specifically, you pay a points total at character creation which means you can access an advantage at a later date equal to twice that value, but you then have to spend earned points to make up the difference. When I read the review, it implied that you got the advantage at half price, which would indeed be a bit poor.
The other thing to bear in mind is that the new GURPS basic sets is designed to cover a much wider range of campaigns than the earlier basic sets did. In one of the 3e books (Supers, I think) this mechanic was introduced and it certainly fits in that kind of context. Similarly, a fantasy character who was 'destined for greatness', or some other fantasy staple, might legitimately make use of this mechanic.
I've only read up to the end of Advantages so far, but I've pretty much liked everything I've read up to now. I originally bought the 1st edition of GURPS when I was a teenager, but never played it as it singularly failed to deliver on the promise of covering any type of campaign due to World books being essential. I genuinly feel that 4e could cover any type of campaign passably well out-of-the-box.
Post originally by Simon Proctor at 2004-09-10 09:25:54
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The reason why the tech levels do not go past TL11 in the 4th edition (and I'm pretty sure it's stated there) is that it's impossible to extrapolate future techonolgy so they are leaving it to the GM's
One of the biggest problems with running Sci-Fi with 3rd edition GURPS was the TL progression was given but this would often not fit the GM's view of how tech should work. Thus he had to go and redefine everything and then argue with players over why they couldn't by the personal shoulder mounted antimatter missile launcher even though it was in the book as being at this tech level.
I note that a lot of your negative comments seem to be based arounds the idea of the GM being unable to say no to players asking for things. Hit points for instance has a recommended max, Bang skills are optional, etc.
Personally I don't think I'd have anyproblems running a space Opera campaign with the new Edition.
Post originally by SteelCaress at 2004-09-10 10:06:27
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One of the things that kind of annoyed me about their "what kind of game do you want to see" survey was that there was no room for additional comments. It almost sounded like SJG already knew what they were going to put in, they just needed to know what amounts of which rules might sell.
I think I would have made combat more realistic, like weapon length v.s. weapon length, when you attack affecting the results of your attack (and your foe's), heavier weapons leaving you more vulnerable at the end of your attack, different weapons changing armor effectiveness, etc. Put some more strategy into it, instead of more rules.
I would have made character creation easier. At least a master index in the beginning of character creation chapter, listing all the advantages that would go with a cyberpunk character, a fantasy character, etc. I would have made the the advantages a little more customizable, so you don't end up with a gluttonous, lecherous kleptomaniac when you have to pad out your character points.
Any of you who have ever played GURPS games with rules lawyers know that the combat rules needed serious editing. "I demand we use the shield breakage rules!" and "We need to use the 'crippling' rules -- I break a bone just about every time I hit!" and so forth. Kinda soured me on combat done the traditional way.
Post originally by xero at 2004-09-10 10:16:25
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Good review. As mention already, next time include the version if it's relevant. Also, the following statements are incorrect:
- "All stats start at 10 for free; the physical stats are plus or minus 10 points per level, and the mental stats are plus or minus 20 points per level."
DX and IQ are 20/level, ST and HT are 10/level.
- "The experience system in GURPS is seven pages long. However, it doesn't say anything about earning experience in this chapter -- it just tells you how to spend it."
This statement is incorrect. Xp awards are described in full on page 498 of the Campaign Book (GM's Book) - exactly as it should be. It recommends giving 0 to 5 pts per session - just like before.
- "Chapter Eighteen: Game Mastering - Since most of it is familiar territory to anyone who has read more than one well-written RPG, I glossed over it."
Well that explains your statement above... :-) I suggest reading it anyway - just for kicks!
I have some comments about Gurps, too...
- What is up with Dai? Why do some many Gurps geeks like that character? Is it just nostalga? He has got to be one of the most uninteresting characters I've ever read, heard, or seen. You may hate Sora, but she is much more interesting and better to look at than Dai...!
- "Modifiers are percentile, and tack right onto a power. It's a clean way to do it"
No, this is a messy way to do it. Straight point costs would have been much easier to deal with than trying to figure a %, especially for beginners. Gurps is starting to turn into Hero - I'll need a calculator to create characters pretty soon.
- "The Ugly: Schrödinger's Advantage"
Well, in a supers campaign, I could easily see a character wanting mystery powers that pop up here and there. Supers are always so defined as mages, you know.
- "This section mixes mundane and wonderous abilities in together"
I hated this. This is one area that Hero beats Gurps silly with a rubber hose. At least in Hero, your heroic abilities are in one section and your "other" abilties are in another. In this way, it's easy for a fantasy character to be built, especially for beginners. Gurps is too much of a hodge podge of stuff that has no organization about. For someone that plays a lot of fantasy, half the skills and 3/4 the advantages are unusable. For beginners, this is simply a headache. For each campaign I run, I'm going to have to type up a list of skills and advantages that are appropriate for that setting. It's funny, Hero has all the same pluses, but I never had to do that with those campaigns.
- "The Bad: No Passive Defense"
I'm actually happy they did away with it. It makes combat easier, and doesn't really add much to the realism.
- "SJ Games could have accurately named this chapter "Chapter Six: Where we replace industry-leader rules with the dirtiest copout in the business."
Actually, Hero does that the same way, so I'm not sure what industry you're talking about. It makes more sense. A psionic ability is simply just a power, is it not? If they had done the same thing with the spells, their ascendance would have been complete. Why do you think Hero works so well? Everything is based as a power. Makes sense.
- "In an unusual move, the pagination of the two books continues; that is, Book One ends on page 336, and Book Two starts on page 337. This is neither a selling point nor a deal-breaker for me."
They may try to sell me on the fact that it takes two books (at $80 mind you) because there's "simply too much information to put into one", but this is sheer bullshit. Hero produces huge 500 page books, with smaller print (yes, SJ, if you decrease the font size a tad, you CAN fit them into one book), and with much more information to boot. And that's not the only one. Every game I own used to fit into one book, but as a complete marketing scam that we all buy into, Deadlands, D&D, and now Gurps (among others) have all gone the greedy way to make RPGs - put them in two books. Well, for $80, they should have given me more information. That campaign book is barely 200 pages - not even worth being on it's own. Thank god Hero hasn't sunk to that level (yet).
- "The Bad: There's still some 'magic numbers' in this chapter, rather than character-based. For example, the optional rules for bleeding: "At the end of every minute after being wounded, make a HT roll, at -1 per 5 HP lost." Every 5 HP? Really? Even if I'm a battleship with 600 HP and 150 DR, or a cat with 4 HP?"
I hope you meant battleship as in tough character, not literally a ship in the water, 'cause ships don't bleed... :-) However,assuming you meant the former, I would still agree with Gurps on this one. If a dragon and a person both get stabbed with a dagger, should they not bleed the same amount (not accounting for tough hide, etc.)? Of course! What - do you think because he's bigger, he's going to bleed more?
- "The art in the books is... meh"
Oh contraire mon ami! The artwork is not bad at all - some really god stuff, some average, but compared to the old Gurps books (3rd Ed. and before), this is fantastic!!
- "If this edition had been the game I found way back in 1995, I don't think I would be in gaming now."
Uh... maybe cause you were 11 years old at the time? I think this statement is a little harsh. The new Gurps is better written, better looking, and a little better organized (in general). The flaw with the new books in my mind is the sheer amount of information you have to plow through, becuase Gurps is a settingless game (what a bad idea). At 3rd Ed. and before, the information was scattered into supplements - where you might expect to find them. Now, it's a just a hodge podge of data that doesn't have any sort of reference given with it. Personally, I hope the Fantasy book (and the other setting books)are better written than the previous editions. I keep looking at my Hero 5th Ed. books and keep thinking... geez, I wish Gurps was as well written. Oh well, no game's perfect,right?
My complaint about Gurps is still the same - it's like wax. It's so bland, dull, and flavorless. Even Hero, which has the same issues, does a good job of adding a lot of flavor to their games!
As both a pro and a con, the Barney-colored border of each page is both ugly and beautiful at the same time, and as every chapter has it's own color, I find them very useful for finding a chapter's beginning and end.
On a side note, I had to return two of my Character books back to the store because they fell apart (one within an hour of buying it, the other two days later). This isn't that suprising because Gurps uses the cheapest binding methods I've even seen, and most of my Gurps books are falling apart (except for my Magic which is used constantly and is still going strong). However, for $35 and $40/book, I really expected a better product in this regards.
Anyway, good review! I liked the examples you brought up to explain why you didn't like or did like something. Always a good idea!
Post originally by DOS at 2004-09-10 10:24:04
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After reading both Hero 5th and Gurps 4th i found it easer to understand Hero system than Gurps. I think its just me and it's not a knock on the game but I found it a dry read and slightly less complex than the Hero. Hero has it's negatives but i found the examples in Hero 5th to be much better than the ones in gurps 4th
I was expecting the math to be less complex and it is but not by much. What suprised me was that they did not include a chart with all the values that you could possible come out with like there was in the Hero System Sidekick. Using that chart you no longer need a caluclator in Hero whereas in gurps you still do.
I also find that Gurps Lite does not really prepare for Gurps but that just my opinion and not fact. The art was better than previous editions but I was expecting more.
If you are a fan than this is the version for you myself I will probably stick with Hero.
Post originally by Leo Comerford at 2004-09-10 10:51:15
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As I recall, GURPS 3rd. ed. gave every character (no more than) two actions per round. This seems workable in a realistic game where nobody is superhuman. But it seems completely unsuitable for wired-up solos/street samurai, supers like Superman or Spiderman, Celeritying vampires, or games where combat is "cinematic". Which is to say that it seems vanilla GURPS 3rd. ed. is actually unsuitable for many (most?) of the popular types of RPG.
So has the fourth edition fixed any of this? From a glimpse at the new GURPS Light, it seems not. What gives?
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