Post originally by Azathoth294 at 2004-10-04 12:38:49
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The handwriting font for the headings is very difficult to read (Subsume, p.117), especially for words that are native to Vampire (e.g. Veridical Tongue, p.153). On several occasions, I had to read the body text to find the word that looked most like the heading to figure out what the section was about.
Heading hiearchy in most RPG books or textbooks or technical manuals is determined by a combination of font type and size. For example:
In V:tR, the font type is always the same; the only difference between major headings and subheadings is font size. The size difference between tier 3 and tier 4 is minimal, and thus confusing. Page 145: If you're just skimming, you'd never know that Theban Sorcery was a whole new section apart from the Crúac rituals. The disciplines are also a problem; it's hard to correlate which ability goes with which discipline. Some disciplines don't even have abilities, like Celerity, which made me wonder if Dominate was a subheading (and thus, sub-discipline or ability) of Celerity.
My point is, it's hard for first-time gamers to orient themselves in this book, especially if they use heading changes as a way to orient themselves. Flip through an AEG book (e.g., Evil, Good, Wilds, etc.) and you know exactly where you are; this is not the case in V:tR. And while the font for headings in V:tR is cool and looks like it was actually handwritten, they could've done a better job making the characters(especially d, s, and u) a little more clear, or used this font sparingly, or used a different font for subheadings.
Post originally by tetsujin28 at 2004-10-04 12:56:19
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From the ugly gray backgrounds to the kooky use of fonts, WW books have always been difficult to read. Too bad they haven't learned, since the new WoD core book is clean and user-friendly.
Post originally by Wood at 2004-10-04 14:12:08
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Azathoth294 wrote:
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My point is, it's hard for first-time gamers to orient themselves in this book, especially if they use heading changes as a way to orient themselves.
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Precisely my point. I mean, it's nice-looking, but not much fun if you're flipping through the book trying to find that rule.
Like tetsujin28 said, it's a major disappointment for me after the user-friendliness of the main WoD book.
Post originally by Santapau at 2004-10-04 15:27:28
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I think that the reason for the popularity of the art of J.G. Timbrook is not (just) stylistic. It appears to me that he depicts the mood of the games with originality and always with an interesting twist, giving a good glance at the stereotypes and suggesting variations at the same time.
Post originally by Hektor Bim at 2004-10-05 08:29:40
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Every book I own from WW has a lousy index. They also stick the glossary in randomly between the second and third chapters or somewhere else.
This has always been a problem, and it is a problem with Sword and Sorcery books from them too, so it isn't just a World of Darkness problem.
At this point, it seems like White Wolf is either in the grip of a dictatorial layout director, or they have decided that they don't care about usability for their books. Maybe usability and editing are for geeks who don't get the whole gothic-punk sensibility of the supercool people at White Wolf.
Post originally by Wood at 2004-10-05 10:06:05
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I sympathise, but the New World of Darkness rulebook did at least have an index that was utilitarian, if not perfect. I thought they were turning over a new leaf - but it looks like it was a blip.
Post originally by Anonymous at 2004-10-05 12:02:43
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This one's anonymous for obvious reasons. It's more long-winded than I expected, but given the subject matter, I thought I'd try to pull the curtain aside and explain at least one industry person's reasons why problems with indices are so common. Please note that these are all my own personal experiences and opinions, and I'm not speaking for other editor/developers by any means.
First off, a quick word in defense of the WW folks. I've been pretty closely associated with the company's staff for a few years now, and I personally have never heard anyone from White Wolf say that "Usability and editing are for geeks who don't get the whole gothic-punk sensibility of us supercool people at White Wolf," since many of them quite proudly fit into the "geek" role themselves. Most of the time I've found the staff people mercifully free of the "supercool" affectations of many of their fans, and are almost all pretty approachable and pleasant. At least that's how I've always seen them (other folks' experiences notwithstanding). And, as someone who's been involved in the editing and preparation of a lot of books (including some from WW as well as a good number of others), I absolutely guarantee you that I have never, ever thought anything of the kind, and I'd probably kick anyone who did say such things right in the... shins...
I can tell you from personal experience that there's a reason that indices get left out of some books -- a good index is hard to do, it takes a very long time and most of the books are done on a very tight deadline.
As an editor or developer I could have created indices on the books that I worked on. I chose not to, not because I thought that "indices are for the weak" (which I suppose could be translated into latin and used as someone's motto), but because the books take a long time to create and usually by the time I'm finished I've got very little time left. Also, when a book is running long and we don't want to cut content, something has to give, and very often it's the index.
And there's one more thing that should be considered. You can't create a complete index in the editing stage, since you don't know what pages subjects will appear on in the final layout. Editing is done with a word processing program, while layout is done in a DTP program such as Quark Xpress or Pagemaker (this is a practical consideration... it's not really possible to edit directly in a DTP program, since it would change the layout, etc., and I'm not very good with DTP programs anyway).
When you're editing in MS Word, all you can do is come up with the subjects and XX for page numbers ("Hit points... XX" or "Torpor... XX") because you don't know what page they're going to be on until it's gone through layout. At that point, either the layout staffer (who has lots of other stuff to take care of) has to change the XX's into correct page numbers, or it needs to go back to the developer/editor, who then will have to take MORE time to to through and make the required changes. Then finally it can go to the printer, but by this time, the printer is probably fuming because you told him you'd get galleys to him three weeks ago and he's now got a huge hole in his schedule.
My experience is that most companies don't do indices. And (as this review implies) a bad index is almost worse than no index at all. We all work for very little money on very tight deadlines, and usually don't have the time or patience to sit down with a long manuscript (which we've usually labored on for weeks or months) and create a detailed index. <whine>It's just tooooo harrrrrrd.</whine>
Yeah, know... It sounds like I'm making excuses. Really, I'm not. I am one of those folks who really appreciates a good index (say what you will about WotC's D20 books, the indices rock), and I'm not about to sit here and claim that I'm somehow justified in leaving them out because "I'm the pro and you're just geeky fanboys and -girls." Like I said, I'm as big a geek as everyone else in the industry, and I'm proud of it. Believe me, I will try in future to get my larger projects indexed, but it will be in the face of all the challenges that I listed above.
Hopefully, that will give you folks a slightly better idea of the process that's involved and why sometimes we decide to forego including an index.
*whew* An awful lot of words for a somewhat outre topic, dontcha think? Before turning the flamethrowers on me, know that this is an issue that has troubled me for a long time and that I have yet to find a satisfactory solution for.
Keep gaming, brothers and sisters. It may be all we have.
Post originally by Cerebus at 2004-10-05 15:46:09
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> You can't create a complete index in the
> editing stage, since you don't know what
> pages subjects will appear on in the final > layout.
Pardon me, but I'm pretty sure you can.
Automatic indexing is a basic function in FrameMaker, and I'm pretty sure it's available in Word as well. While I haven't used Quark Xpress or PageMaker, I'd be surprised at any documentation program that *didn't* let you generate indexes automatically. It can hardly be considered a reputable publishing program if it doesn't, IMHO. Most books do have indexes, after all. And how do you suppose WotC is doing it?
Perhaps WWGS should consider investing in some licenses for FrameMaker or a similar program that will let them do both indexing and layout at once.
[And no, I don't work for Adobe -- just calling it as I see it.]
Post originally by Josh Shaw at 2004-10-06 00:54:55
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I just totatly don't see how you fail to get The Seven, it's one of the best ideas in the book and I'm looking forward to their splatbook (there will be splatbooks I assume).
You're reasonably normal, you're walking around in the world, and all of a sudden, totally without your consent, you've been changed into a blood drinking serial killer. I don't know what your reaction to that would be (Oh, wow, now I have cool vampiric powers and chicks will dig me), but I'd be flipp'n ticked off. I'd want a piece of the idiot who did this to me.
Assuming I got through that OK, I now know that there are hordes of crazed murderers running around lose. Let's go get them. OK, I can't tell people about being a vampire, 'cause then they'd lock me up, but there's probably plenty of other involuntary vamps that are just as PO'ed as I'm. We get together, form a club, decide on a secret handshake, pool our money for some guns and body armor, and poof, we're in business.
The only real question is whether or not to advertise. Not having a handle makes us harder to find and is sneakier, but a good logo helps us to find more recruits. More importantly, it puts the fear of Satan into the cold hearts of the opposition. Remember, this is about bloody vengence, not just finding the optimum solution.
I'm going to be playing in a friends campaign soon, but if I ever get to run VtR, I could see running an all Seven campaign. Vampires hunting vampires, infiltration, intrigue, and desperate battles with foes as bad ass as you are. Sounds like fun to me.
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