Post originally by CodexArcanum at 2005-06-03 07:46:02
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I'm not going to argue too hard on the points in this review, everyone has a pretty firm opinion of their own on WW2. However, I did feel that the game maintained a pretty fair tone as far as race, gender, and other issues went considering the game's time period. WW2 was a pretty racist, sexist, and other-ists time and writing a game about such a subject that tries for more than just random Nazi killing is a tough and bold challenge.
I felt that Detwiler actually made the Germans a lot better on the supers front than most nations. All that Nazi propaganda about being a superior race apparently sank in. As to the Japanese, it seemed to me that he was generally fair about the descriptions. There are a few Japanese Talents in the book, and I believe that one of them is described in a massive fight with an American super and the Japanese Talent wins. I read Dennis' point about Japanese individuality and it seemed pretty accurate based on my knowledge of WW2 history. It seemed to me that they were very convinced of the strength of their nation, and thus did not have as strong a need for belief in thier own strength. But to each their own, the book isn't the end all of how you run the game, and I haven't even done a game in the Pacific yet.
Speaking of, I'm sorry that the reviewer doesn't feel any need to play the game. I've run a few sessions for my group and they always have a killer time. Power creation is fast and mercifully simple. We had human characters in less than 10 minutes, and about 10-20 more minutes to get powers worked out and balanced like everyone wanted. Ironically, I mostly just run the game as Nazi-bashing, my group like that kind of thing, but I can see it working great for exploring other issues during the war.
Anyway, the ORE is a very fast and fun system. Everyone really enjoyed the speed and deadliness of combat. It's definately a system that stays out of the way of your gameplay, and it doesn't matter if your group is a "kill 'em and take their stuff" or likes to play with a little more depth.
One reccomendation I'll make to anyone who wants to play this game: little plastic army men. For me, it just really helps me visual the battles better. Other groups can do it all visually, some will go more wargame with it, but I find that using those $1 a bag army guys works great for keeping the field under control.
Post originally by Stephen O'Brien at 2005-06-03 07:46:10
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While I take your point about the Japanese and Will, it should be said that it is *not* a feature of race: the book prominently points out that Japanese-American soldiers were some of the most effective of the war.
I also don't think it's true to say that "the Americans triumph due to their superior Willpower". If anything, the Nazi Talents have more willpower than their Allied counterparts. It's a reliance on Will which leads to the defeat of the Nazi Talent Units.
Post originally by Jasper McChesney at 2005-06-03 10:24:05
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"I read Dennis' point about Japanese individuality and it seemed pretty accurate based on my knowledge of WW2 history. It seemed to me that they were very convinced of the strength of their nation, and thus did not have as strong a need for belief in thier own strength."
I think the reviewer's point was not that this characterization was untrue (it may or may not be) but that granting powers based on "individuality" is making a statement along the lines of 'American values = Real True Good values' with the corollary of 'American culture > Japanese culture'.
Post originally by DJTireisas at 2005-06-03 12:00:14
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Right. But, "its not their race, its their culture" is still an argument for superiority.
Any yeah, I liked that "The Nazis lost because they were elitist and relied on talents" undercurrent of the book. It was a fun metaphor for what actually happened.
Post originally by DJTireisas at 2005-06-03 12:04:59
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That's exactly what I was saying, thanks.
Its a bit remniscent of Sept 12, where some conservative Christian got on TV and said the attack was the fault of the gay people and the prochoicers. If you're gay or prochoice, that's incredibly offensive. (obviously not as big of a deal in the context of a game.)
I did play with the system a bit actually, just I didn't have an occasion to run a whole session. The system does run beautifully, but I worry it would break down if you handed out 100+ will to buy powers.
Post originally by iago at 2005-06-03 12:47:27
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Of course, you guys are assuming that having talents is an unmitigated blessing. One of the major themes in the book is that it can be pretty damned crappy to have all those super powers. Several of the talents went mad, and others probably should have. For example, the Chinese talent who became permanently insubstantial and could never again touch another person. Additionally, most of these talents never made it home.
And if the most talents=one true way statement is true, then that means that the Germans had the one true way. They had the most talents.
Post originally by Turk Broda at 2005-06-03 13:53:24
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I don't see it that way.
I don't think it was intended to say Talents= Better.
After all, the first Talent was a Nazi. I think that fact that the Japanese were more communal and group orientated made them weak- it just made them less likely to manifest powers that are built on idiocyncratic individualism.
I personally think that it is a bit sterotypical, but it also fits with the mythology of the Japanese soldier.
Post originally by Devin Binger at 2005-06-03 14:02:30
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Actually, Stalinism and Zionism are the Two True Ways. The Russians had the most talents, and the surviving European Jewish population had an overwhelming number per capita (the Legion of Five Thousand).
That's why one of the few major discrepancies between Godlike's history and ours is the establishment of Israel.
Post originally by CodexArcanum at 2005-06-03 19:47:38
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Yes, I'm not sure how well it would run when you get above 100 points of will. I actually boosted my group just a bit (35 will to start and 1 extra attribute point) which makes them just survivable enough to be fun without removing the game's gritty feeling.
Overall, I'm very much in love with ORE, but I think it's very good at what it does, and not super great for other stuff. I note that super-powers are largely a narrative affair compared to the rest of the system. Players tend to buy the wiggle and hard dice for them, and then just use them without a lot of fuss with rolling. For that reason, yes, I can see how it might break down with high power levels. There would be a lot less rolling and "mundane" actions being taken and a lot more describing cool powers and what they do, which may not be a bad thing, but which mostly ignores the dice mechanics.
I kind of tried to hint at the Germans having a lot of supers thing, but I failed to bring it up as clearly. America, to me, seemed very middle of the road as far as supers went. Germany, Russia, and maybe a few other countries got more supers, Japan and the east less. Anyway, I don't want to argue this point any further. There's been a lot of discussion over whether godlike is racist or sexist or whatever, and I've never really seen any resolution come from the talks, which leads me to believe that the game is on the line just far enough to bother some people and not others.
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