[RPG]: Serenity Roleplaying Game, reviewed by Cthulthoth (4/3)

[Hogscape]

Great review, very funny and it's true, all the really good quotes are to be found in the TV show.

Just one point, I can confirm that characters do NOT have too many Life Points; damage is based on the hit roll minus defence plus damage die... And that's plenty to take out anyone!

Cheers

[Beri]

Just to comment on the damage of sniper rifles: each weapon's damage stat is just a bonus which is applied to the damage of your roll, kinda representing the raw killin' potential of bullets of various sizes. It's much more important in Serenity to roll well than to have a big gun.
How does sniping work, then? Well, someone in a sniping position will almost certainly be benefitting from 3 turns of aiming, for +3 step to their roll. Depending on what your GM thinks, you might even get to add All-Out Attack to that, adding another +2 step.
Now which one is more deadly - the shotgun at d6+d8 (damage d10), or the sniper rifle at d6+d12+d6 (damage d8)?

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11848.phtml

Jacob X.'s Summary:

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity. But can the a lack of index take the sky from me? We shall discuss this!

Go to the full review for more information.

[Lazarus]

Nice review. I disagree with the final Substance number, but I can't fault your reasoning. Character sheets are readily available from a link on serenityrpg.com, and the book is well organized, such that the table of contents is almost all you need for finding stuff. I would prefer bleeds or "tabs" for better indication of where the chapters are, however, for even easier finding.

For me, the lack of index isn't enough to drop it to 3 Substance, and, indeed, the planets chapter and all the rest of the setting information wedged into every page makes it a 4/4 (it's not a super great system, but it does the job really well; a bigger book would have been very good. The layout, fonts, production, and art are all very good, but there's a few printing flaws that detract a bit from it, so it's more like a 4.6/4, to me).

Laz

[Gene Ha]

I love the show. Love all the source material in the game. Hate the system. It's amateur hour.

Here's one of many problems. Zoe and Jayne (who lifts weights in his spare time) are both Strength d10. That's a bit surprising. So how does Strength affect the game?

I can't find it. Melee damage is based on the attack roll plus weapon damage (neither skill nor weapon damage are based on ST). Unlike GURPS 4E, ST does not affeect Hit Points.

Strength is pretty much only used for feats of strength, like clearing rocks. It's just a guess how hard any feat is as there are no Encumbrance rules. Which is odd, because equipment weights are listed.

A few things, like running, can use either Agility or Strength or both. Because of the way Attributes are priced, you're encouraged to buy the lowest Strength available (d4) and pile the extra points elsewhere.

Let's get to the heart of the system: resolution. Normally you roll against a difficulty number (ie target number). In an opposed action, both characters roll Attribute + Skill, and the higher roll wins. Nice and simple, and idiotic. What if Zoe's snaking past a guard, through a warehouse of crates at night? That works. What if Zoe's sneaking past a guard, across an empty field of dry twigs at high noon? There's no rules for modifiers to opposed rolls. To fix the system, you either have to let both roll against difficulty numbers and see who succeeds by more, or modify the rolls (which is a system alien to the game).

The rules for complex actions, taking extended periods of time and multiple rolls, are even worse. No matter how hard the task, someone of average attributes and skill will eventually succeed. The chance for a failure at a heroic task is less than 5%.

If you love the Firefly/Serenity universe, buy the game. Use the setting. Don't use the game system.

[Beri]

Originally Posted by Gene Ha

I can't find it. Melee damage is based on the attack roll plus weapon damage (neither skill nor weapon damage are based on ST). Unlike GURPS 4E, ST does not affeect Hit Points.

Strength is pretty much only used for feats of strength, like clearing rocks. It's just a guess how hard any feat is as there are no Encumbrance rules. Which is odd, because equipment weights are listed.

We use Strength as the to-hit roll for Melee combat - Strength + Skill. It is unfortunate that it's not mentioned anywhere in the rules, but the way we run our game, every stat is useful in combat - Strength for close combat, Alertness for ranged combat, Agility for defense, and Vitality and Willpower both for Life Points and for various rolls made with them. I guess that does leave Intelligence out, but it gets used enough anyway that it doesn't need a direct combat application.

Let's get to the heart of the system: resolution. Normally you roll against a difficulty number (ie target number). In an opposed action, both characters roll Attribute + Skill, and the higher roll wins. Nice and simple, and idiotic. What if Zoe's snaking past a guard, through a warehouse of crates at night? That works. What if Zoe's sneaking past a guard, across an empty field of dry twigs at high noon? There's no rules for modifiers to opposed rolls. To fix the system, you either have to let both roll against difficulty numbers and see who succeeds by more, or modify the rolls (which is a system alien to the game).

This is false - there is a section in the book specifically about applying penalties. If the penalty is based on the task (the aforementioned field of dry twigs), increase the target number, and if the penalty reduces the character's ability (blinded by sand, injured) reduce their die size. In an opposed roll, set a TN for each character, then whoever garners a larger margin of victory wins.

The rules for complex actions, taking extended periods of time and multiple rolls, are even worse. No matter how hard the task, someone of average attributes and skill will eventually succeed. The chance for a failure at a heroic task is less than 5%.

If it is something where someone with average skill could make progress on it, then yes, he coudl eventually succeed given enough time. There is a section on how the GM can refuse to allow someone to roll, if they feel the task would be impossible for them. Pretty much any system that allows multiple rolls to complete an action has the flaws you describe. If you have to make a lot of rolls, there's a good chance you'll botch one and be worse off than you started.

[pookie]

An index and character sheet are not the only elements missing.
They include...

An example of character generation
An example of play
An example of personal combat
An example of ship or vehicle combat

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Gene Ha

Here's one of many problems. Zoe and Jayne (who lifts weights in his spare time) are both Strength d10. That's a bit surprising. So how does Strength affect the game?

Strength is used for things that require Strength. If you hit folk hard, but not pretty, use Str + Unarmed Combat, or Str + Melee Combat. This is a style of hitting thing; fencing would require Str + Melee / Sword.

A few things, like running, can use either Agility or Strength or both. Because of the way Attributes are priced, you're encouraged to buy the lowest Strength available (d4) and pile the extra points elsewhere.

This is more a flaw in the advancement system: stuff costs linearly at character creation and triangularly at advancement time. If they chose only one scale for it, then it wouldn't have been a problem. As it is, though, if your style of combat includes bashing folk with hammers or the like, and bashing them very hard, buy Strength: it /ought/ to be useful.

Let's get to the heart of the system: resolution. Normally you roll against a difficulty number (ie target number). In an opposed action, both characters roll Attribute + Skill, and the higher roll wins. Nice and simple, and idiotic. What if Zoe's snaking past a guard, through a warehouse of crates at night? That works. What if Zoe's sneaking past a guard, across an empty field of dry twigs at high noon? There's no rules for modifiers to opposed rolls. To fix the system, you either have to let both roll against difficulty numbers and see who succeeds by more, or modify the rolls (which is a system alien to the game).

How about having the circumstances apply a -1 or -2 Step Penalty to Zoe's sneaking? That can be done, and reflects Zoe's decreased ability to sneak past the guard. If the guard also had video screens, or low light illumination, or whatever, he'd get Step Bonuses as well.

The rules for complex actions, taking extended periods of time and multiple rolls, are even worse. No matter how hard the task, someone of average attributes and skill will eventually succeed. The chance for a failure at a heroic task is less than 5%.

This is standard in most RPGs - the rolls imply timing. People who have average in the task will eventually succeed, but at a slower time than people who are experts (generally, of course). No, this is not necessarily realistic. I'm not sure that's much of a problem.

If you love the Firefly/Serenity universe, buy the game. Use the setting. Don't use the game system.

I use the game system. It works very well for me. You just have to figure out that the stats apply to tasks you figure they apply to. Whenever you want the players to roll for something, look at the stats and skills, and call for whatever is appropriate, and you're allowed to step their dice - it's done all over the place. You don't, however, alter their rolled result.

Yes, there are some things wrong with the system, but I don't believe you've highlighted any of them. At least, what you've highlighted isn't a problem for me.

Laz

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by pookie

An example of character generation

I don't remember on that one ... however, through their very clear step-by-step, and the inclusion of the Serenity crew, I'm not sure if it's necessary - especially as they're clear in the description of each step, here's what to do, and point to the crew (at least in several steps).

An example of play

p.138, 139. Disguised as game fiction, but is actually an example of play (dice rolls and everything), using the opening heist from the film.

An example of personal combat
An example of ship or vehicle combat

These two I'll give you. They have examples for specific steps, but there's some important workings that they left out.

Laz

[Gene Ha]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

Strength is used for things that require Strength. If you hit folk hard, but not pretty, use Str + Unarmed Combat, or Str + Melee Combat. This is a style of hitting thing; fencing would require Str + Melee / Sword.

If Strength+Unarmed Combat is always used for UC attack rolls, then Jayne is just as good as River at UC. So an unarmed Jayne could have taken out those 100 Reavers in "Serenity" the movie.

Jayne ST d10 + UC Brawling d8 = Avg 5.5 + 4.5 = Avg 10
River ST d6 + UC Mart Arts d12 = Avg 3.5 + 6.5 = Avg 10

If Agility can be used instead, once again there's no good excuse to buy a high ST.
Agility is useful for so many other things (Guns, Blocking, Innate Defense) that it becomes your One Stop Combat Shop.

Originally Posted by Lazarus

As it is, though, if your style of combat includes bashing folk with hammers or the like, and bashing them very hard, buy Strength: it /ought/ to be useful.

In this RPG, there is no difference between hitting "hard" and hitting "pretty". If you hit accurately, you do more damage. Doesn't matter if you add d10 of ST or AG.

Originally Posted by Lazarus

How about having the circumstances apply a -1 or -2 Step Penalty to Zoe's sneaking? That can be done, and reflects Zoe's decreased ability to sneak past the guard. If the guard also had video screens, or low light illumination, or whatever, he'd get Step Bonuses as well.

Point taken! I wish you'd been one of the playtesters. Would've been a nice clarification.

Originally Posted by Lazarus

This is standard in most RPGs - the rolls imply timing. People who have average in the task will eventually succeed, but at a slower time than people who are experts (generally, of course). No, this is not necessarily realistic. I'm not sure that's much of a problem.

In this RPG, even a fantastically difficult multistage "complex" action simply takes longer if you fail rolls. The odds of rolling two botches in a row are very low. So if Joe Blow the d6+d6 paramedic needs to insert a Jarvik heart there's almost no chance the patient in shock with gunshot wounds and toxemia will die.

New design mistake: Plot Points. If you spend them before you roll (ie before you know how many you'll need) the average bonus is PP+0.5. If you spend 1 PP you get 1d2, avg 1.5. If you spend 5 PP you roll d10, avg 5.5.

But if you spend after the roll (when you know exactly how much you'll need to win) each point buys a +1 bonus. One PP buys +1, 5 PP buys +5. Spend the PP after the roll so you don't waste PP when you would have succeeded anyway.

Originally Posted by Lazarus

Yes, there are some things wrong with the system, but I don't believe you've highlighted any of them. At least, what you've highlighted isn't a problem for me.

Laz

That's a bit like saying a badly written recipe doesn't hamper Alice Waters. It does have deep flaws, you're just clever enough to fix them on the fly.

But when I read a system, I want it to already be elegant. These are things I could fix, but I wish I didn't have to.