[RPG]: Shadowrun Fourth Edition, reviewed by Menchi (5/5)

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12161.phtml

Conan McKegg's Summary:

The roleplaying classic of magic and cybertech comes of age with a streamlined, unified system that produces a fluid and fun game. Sets a real benchmark for how to layout, write and design a game.

Go to the full review for more information.

[Kyle]

Great review ! Thanks !

At first, I wasn't sure if 4th edition was for me. The drastic dice system change, the update setting, the fact that I had to buy all over again every book I already have for 3rd edition, etc.

But after reading your review, I now can't wait to get this book !
The dice system has change, yes I know, but now it seems more streamlined. And the setting, hey ! It's Shadowrun. Can't go wrong there.

One question though : how useful or how needful is the System Failure book ? Can we play without ? Is there a lot of reference to it ?
Or can one simply buy the core rulebook and begin playing easily, if they had previously some experience with the 3rd edition ?

[cartoonlad]

This is a book that has been written with the idea in mind that you will actually be using it to play the game. That is how all roleplaying rule books should be written.

It is amazing at how much I disagree with the above. The way the book is written, it reads well. It appears that all you need is in the book and that the rules are laid out in an organized manner, but in practice one winds up flipping through the book to find rule after rule. The worst thing about the book is the Wireless World section. Here's three examples that illustrate three major flaws with the Wireless World section using what are common tasks for a shadowrunning hacker.

1. Relevant rules are split across several pages.

Take a hacker that jacks out of the Matrix. One would think that the "Jacking Out" section on page 220 contains all the rules for that action: you take a Free Action to physically separate yourself from your commlink as a last resort measure when prevented from logging off by a Black IC program. All fine and good until eleven pages later, buried in the "Black IC Attacks" section, you find out that attempts to jack out are actually Complex Actions. Not only that, but you must take an opposed test between the IC and the hacker. So it looks like you either pass and jack out successfully or you fail and the connection is stuck open. But wait -- "Users who jack out immediately suffer dumpshock." Go back to the section before "Black IC Attacks" and you'd find that this dumpshock thing that wasn't mentioned in the "Jacking Out" section might cause physical damage.

2. Various rules contradict each other.

Let's find someone's commlink in a crowded room. Do you follow the rule on page 225 or the rule on page 220? One has you making an Electronic Warfare + Scan (var, 1 Combat Turn) extended test, the other has you roll a Data Search + Scan test (not extended, but allowed multiple uses). Incidentally, what is the variable target number for the EW + Scan extended test?

3. Various rules aren't fleshed out.

How does one edit a feed from a security camera? "A single Edit action only alters output for a short period (one Combat Turn). In order to alter output for a longer period, you must first take control of the device (see p. 220) prior to the Edit action." Ah, we need to take control of the camera, so that's... Wait, the "Controlling Devices" section is all about controlling things like a rigger would -- control a car takes a Command + Mechanic test, a drone would be Command + a relevant vehicle skill test. There's nothing in there for controlling a security camera, a commlink, or someone's cyberarm ("Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"). What's to be added to the Command test for controlling the camera? Assume that we somehow control the camera. Now we make just one Computer + Edit skill check. (Shouldn't this be Hacking + Edit? Computer "does not include knowledge of exploiting or subverting such systems". This sounds like Hacking.) How long can we hack the feed? What's the target number of the test? What does a security hacker have to do to detect a tampered feed?

So what do we have? We have a game book that really looks polished, but is unwieldy for actual game play. The Wireless World looks like FanPro did get feedback from playtesters and they did implement them in the game book, but then didn't really playtest the game with the new rules. That section in particular needs to be re-written. (In fact, that's what I had to do with the section for my game. Once the chapter was rewritten and several rules clarifications and changes were made, the whole thing made sense.)

[JongWK]

"Variable target number" ? Are we reading the same edition?

[Harlequins_Back]

There's a lot of other flaws in nSR as well.

Ranged combat is overloaded with options-- you can get overwhelmed rather quickly with all the choices. Then you get into matrix combat, where you only get to go full defense or full attack; a classic case of "Uh, I try and hit him again". There's not even any maneuvers listed for astral combat. There are two sets of rules for vehicle combat, which are mutually contradictory, and don't mesh with any of the pedestrian combat rules at all.

Edge is blatantly overpowered. Someone on Dumpshock posted how, with a high enough edge, you can stand on your head, blindfolded, with all your arms broken and trying to remember the second verse of the Star Spangled Banner... and have a very good chance of taking out an armored personnel carrier with a pistol. Teamwork tests are also wide open for abuse; apparently you can do the army of agents trick to take down anything in the matrix.

Character creation is too fiddly for words. It's poorly laid out-- it really needs an overview of creation listed before it throws you into it, and it really shouldn't stop mid-chapter to give you eight pages of edges and flaws. For that matter, it shouldn't tell you that you need a particular edge before you've even been introduced to the concept-- for example, it tells you to select the Magician quality if you want to be magical, before it even mentions what qualities or magic are and what they do for your character. Edges and flaws really need to be in a separate index or chapter, so they don't disrupt the flow of the character creation chapter.

The original Shadowrun atmosphere has been lost. Instead of the unique computer terminology, most of the matrix terms look like they came straight out of the WinXP users manual. Some of the original shadowslang exists, but it comes and goes-- the on-again, off-again slang is very jarring to read.

All of the unique Shadowrun dice mechanics are gone. We now have d6 nWoD. I won't go so far as to say that thay plagarized White Wolf, but the similarities are too strong to be any sort of coincidence.

Some people are having fun with it. Some aren't. It's certainly not a horrible game system. But it's definitely not a 5/5. If you like the nWoD mechanics, you'll probably have more fun playing nWoD.

[cartoonlad]

Originally Posted by JongWK

"Variable target number" ? Are we reading the same edition?

Page 225: "Finding a particular node in a crowded area might be more difficult: make an Electronic Warfare + Scan (variable, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test against a gamemaster-determined threshold based on the difficulty of finding and selecting out the node in question."

By "variable target number", I meant the number of successes needed to pass the test.

[Menchi]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Great review ! Thanks !

At first, I wasn't sure if 4th edition was for me. The drastic dice system change, the update setting, the fact that I had to buy all over again every book I already have for 3rd edition, etc.

But after reading your review, I now can't wait to get this book !
The dice system has change, yes I know, but now it seems more streamlined. And the setting, hey ! It's Shadowrun. Can't go wrong there.

One question though : how useful or how needful is the System Failure book ? Can we play without ? Is there a lot of reference to it ?
Or can one simply buy the core rulebook and begin playing easily, if they had previously some experience with the 3rd edition ?

No need for System Failure. SR4 is a nicely self-contained book. There are some areas with a little knowledge in cyberpunk tropes might be useful - but not necessary.

Despite what some might say, no previous shadowrun knowledge is required. The book opens up with a good description of the world to date, and the "running the shadows" chapter really does cover the nitty gritty of what makes a shadowrun game and how to GM the various elements of the setting.

It also ends with some very useful GMing advice.

Conan

[Menchi]

Originally Posted by cartoonlad

It is amazing at how much I disagree with the above. The way the book is written, it reads well. It appears that all you need is in the book and that the rules are laid out in an organized manner, but in practice one winds up flipping through the book to find rule after rule. The worst thing about the book is the Wireless World section. Here's three examples that illustrate three major flaws with the Wireless World section using what are common tasks for a shadowrunning hacker.

As I said, we started play on the same day I had read the book and had no problems.

1. Relevant rules are split across several pages.

Take a hacker that jacks out of the Matrix. One would think that the "Jacking Out" section on page 220 contains all the rules for that action: you take a Free Action to physically separate yourself from your commlink as a last resort measure when prevented from logging off by a Black IC program. All fine and good until eleven pages later, buried in the "Black IC Attacks" section, you find out that attempts to jack out are actually Complex Actions. Not only that, but you must take an opposed test between the IC and the hacker. So it looks like you either pass and jack out successfully or you fail and the connection is stuck open. But wait -- "Users who jack out immediately suffer dumpshock." Go back to the section before "Black IC Attacks" and you'd find that this dumpshock thing that wasn't mentioned in the "Jacking Out" section might cause physical damage.

Except that the Black IC is in the Hacking section - the Jacking out part is in the clearly marked "Matrix basics" section - because even standard AR users can jack out. Furthermore it clearly states in the jacking out paragraph

Originally Posted by Shadowrun 4e pg 220

Jacking out is usually a last resort measure taken by hackers prevented from logging off by a Black IC program (see p. 231)

Check page 231 - and there are the dumpshock rules. Takes less than 5 seconds of looking in the book. Even more noticeable - it's in the section titled "Cybercombat" and is right next to an example of what happens when dealing with Black IC.

2. Various rules contradict each other.

Let's find someone's commlink in a crowded room. Do you follow the rule on page 225 or the rule on page 220? One has you making an Electronic Warfare + Scan (var, 1 Combat Turn) extended test, the other has you roll a Data Search + Scan test (not extended, but allowed multiple uses). Incidentally, what is the variable target number for the EW + Scan extended test?

Easy. Page 220. Because that person is just using a commlink to find someone's personal Network. It expressly stats PAN. Page 220 lists the rules for basic matrix use. Page 225 is for hacking and involves finding active and passive Nodes which are essentially servers - large important parts of the greater Matrix. The clue is where the information is - 220 is basic matrix, 225 is in the hacking section. No contradiction, no confusion.

3. Various rules aren't fleshed out.

How does one edit a feed from a security camera? "A single Edit action only alters output for a short period (one Combat Turn). In order to alter output for a longer period, you must first take control of the device (see p. 220) prior to the Edit action." Ah, we need to take control of the camera, so that's... Wait, the "Controlling Devices" section is all about controlling things like a rigger would -- control a car takes a Command + Mechanic test, a drone would be Command + a relevant vehicle skill test. There's nothing in there for controlling a security camera, a commlink, or someone's cyberarm ("Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"). What's to be added to the Command test for controlling the camera? Assume that we somehow control the camera. Now we make just one Computer + Edit skill check. (Shouldn't this be Hacking + Edit? Computer "does not include knowledge of exploiting or subverting such systems". This sounds like Hacking.) How long can we hack the feed? What's the target number of the test? What does a security hacker have to do to detect a tampered feed?

Well controlling a camera is a hacking action - you're hacking into the matrix network that runs it. Hacking into a cyberlimb? Unless the idiot owning it has it linked to the matrix or his PAN, you can't control someone else's limb. You're talking about a real special case.

But Commlinks have their hacking stats - so it's pretty straight forward there, as is the camera example. Seems to me that you haven't actually read the rules. You've skimmed them and misread how they work.

Conan

[Menchi]

Originally Posted by Harlequins_Back

There's a lot of other flaws in nSR as well.

Ranged combat is overloaded with options-- you can get overwhelmed rather quickly with all the choices. Then you get into matrix combat, where you only get to go full defense or full attack; a classic case of "Uh, I try and hit him again". There's not even any maneuvers listed for astral combat. There are two sets of rules for vehicle combat, which are mutually contradictory, and don't mesh with any of the pedestrian combat rules at all.

Edge is blatantly overpowered. Someone on Dumpshock posted how, with a high enough edge, you can stand on your head, blindfolded, with all your arms broken and trying to remember the second verse of the Star Spangled Banner... and have a very good chance of taking out an armored personnel carrier with a pistol. Teamwork tests are also wide open for abuse; apparently you can do the army of agents trick to take down anything in the matrix.

Character creation is too fiddly for words. It's poorly laid out-- it really needs an overview of creation listed before it throws you into it, and it really shouldn't stop mid-chapter to give you eight pages of edges and flaws. For that matter, it shouldn't tell you that you need a particular edge before you've even been introduced to the concept-- for example, it tells you to select the Magician quality if you want to be magical, before it even mentions what qualities or magic are and what they do for your character. Edges and flaws really need to be in a separate index or chapter, so they don't disrupt the flow of the character creation chapter.

The original Shadowrun atmosphere has been lost. Instead of the unique computer terminology, most of the matrix terms look like they came straight out of the WinXP users manual. Some of the original shadowslang exists, but it comes and goes-- the on-again, off-again slang is very jarring to read.

All of the unique Shadowrun dice mechanics are gone. We now have d6 nWoD. I won't go so far as to say that thay plagarized White Wolf, but the similarities are too strong to be any sort of coincidence.

Some people are having fun with it. Some aren't. It's certainly not a horrible game system. But it's definitely not a 5/5. If you like the nWoD mechanics, you'll probably have more fun playing nWoD.

First of all, I happen to be very familiar with nWoD. SR4 isn't the same - it is a similar evolution in design... but not the same.

Ranged combat is full of options, but not so many as to overwhelm. Again, I point out how we sat down with next to no knowledge of the game and managed to run a highly successful playtest session. No matter what you might think, the actual play has already proven you wrong on that respect.

In regards to the matrix, considering that not everyone is interested in detailed matrx rules that can be introduced in a supplement - the rules that are provided have enough depth to keep the game moving. I liked them, and I can see how easy it would be to just add new options in a follow up "Wireless World" supplement.

Edge is a risky trait that can be abused - but at the same time, the game has rules for how to make the game more gritty or more cinematic. Those rules more than make up for edge. Further, it comes down to general player and GM rationality. Some things will just be too stupid to do. I feel that edge complaint is a bit disingenuous because any GM who says "sure make the roll" on such a patently silly action deserves what he gets.

As for the slang? Sorry, but I like the fact that Shadowrun now makes the matrix realistic in structure and talk. The slang was very eighties style punk talk - and very out of date in tone and feel. The slang was a hold over from the past. There is still street slang in SR4 - just more believeable and less of the cutesy sounding stuff.

It sounds more to me that you are upset that there is no more Shadowrun 3rd than having any really reasonable objections to fourth.

Edge works the same as Karma did in old Shadowrun. Intiative and combat really isn't that much different - the same results come out at the end, just through a different route.

I found that in actual play it kept all the feel of Shadowrun without the fiddly bits that plagued the old system. Much of the atmosphere really comes down to the group. The system has faithfully kept what made SR unique while providing a much superior and unified system. In that respect, it is like nWoD - unified and improved over the older system.

Conan

[Menchi]

Originally Posted by cartoonlad

Page 225: "Finding a particular node in a crowded area might be more difficult: make an Electronic Warfare + Scan (variable, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test against a gamemaster-determined threshold based on the difficulty of finding and selecting out the node in question."

By "variable target number", I meant the number of successes needed to pass the test.

Except that you're choosing certain words. The number of hits needed in an extended test is different from a variable number. In a variable number you needed to score all the successes in one roll.

In the example you mention, the player can roll once every combat turn, accumulating hits. Each individual roll is succeeding, but he needs to get a set number of hits - essentially he is narrowing down the field of possible nodes to find the one he wants, and each successful roll is getting him closer.

Conan