[RPG]: Wilderlands of High Fantasy, reviewed by MonsterMash (4/5)

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12210.phtml

Dave Humm's Summary:

A classic Sword & Sorcery setting updated for use with current rulesets.

Go to the full review for more information.

[jamesh]

What exactly does the Wilderlands boxed set offer that I don't get out of the Player's Guide to the Wilderlands?

I ask as, for all intents and purposes, the Player's Guide seems to lay out all of the major the setting elements, character creation guidelines, and other material that I've come to think of as 'standard fare' for RPG settings (indeed, it reads less like a simple player's guide than a self-contained setting in and of itself). I could easily envision running a lengthy campaign using only this book by itself (and possibly running multiple campaigns using this book and the City State hardcover).

I gather from reading the introduction of said product that the boxed set is aimed squarely at the GM, but it seems to imply that the only things the boxed set adds to the setting are a large number of programmed encounters, some setting secrets (i.e., meta-plot), and one or two sentence descriptions of map hexes. While that's neat and would cut down on prep time, I'm not sure that it's worth $70.

So, what (other than programmed encounters, meta-plot seeds, and some generic hex descriptions) does the boxed set provide that I don't get in the Player's Guide? Is there a setting-specific bestiary, a catalogue of major NPCs, further character creation rules, setting-specific spell lists, more in depth info on the City State, and the like? What (if any) material from the Player's Guide is reprinted in the boxed set?

[MonsterMash]

The answer is very little from the Player's Guide is reprinted. The main thing is the large number of maps with the encounters many of them clearly inter-relate and there is a Judges history giving the true account rather than the one in the PGttW.

Thousands of encounters, 18 maps and the random generation tables add up to a lot of ways to generate new encounters and plot hooks.

[jamesh]

Originally Posted by MonsterMash

The answer is very little from the Player's Guide is reprinted. The main thing is the large number of maps with the encounters many of them clearly inter-relate and there is a Judges history giving the true account rather than the one in the PGttW.

Thank you for the reply. I think you've saved me $70. I was hoping against hope that the boxed set was more than a list of encounters and some metaplot, but the more I hear, the more it seems that these two things compose the bulk of the material therein. For the time being, I think the PG is actually a better deal for me in terms of content versus sticker price.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by jamesh

Thank you for the reply. I think you've saved me $70. I was hoping against hope that the boxed set was more than a list of encounters and some metaplot, but the more I hear, the more it seems that these two things compose the bulk of the material therein. For the time being, I think the PG is actually a better deal for me in terms of content versus sticker price.

It true that the short answer the boxed is a list of one or two paragraph encounters.

But in reality it is more complex than that. One thing is fact that nearly every hex has a encounter listed in it. Another is that the authors (of which I am one) tried to make each encounter relate to each other in subtle ways.

What this does for your game is that you can start your players in any region of the Wilderland and they can pick a direction in which they want to do. You can quickly scan what they are getting into and use that as a framework to construct an adventure. In addition this allows you remain consistent if players ever choose to re-visit the area.

This is opposed to say the forgotten realms/greyhawk style that give you say a forest decribe what roughly in the forest and then leaves it to you fill out where all the encounter and locales are. And much of a FR/Greyhawk is filled out with the bird's eye view of the world. For the wilderlands this is the role of the Player's Guide.

The wilderlands take the opposite tack. We realized that the most tedious part of GMing is creating all the encounter and locales. Most GMs limit themselves to a couple of dozen at best because of time constraints. With the Wilderlands that limitation is removed. Plus we stayed away from imposing any grand campaign meta-plot (there are plenty of local ones) so you can make the wilderlands your own either stand-alone or part of an existing world.

And you download the rorystone stone preview to see a small sample of what the boxed set will offer.

http://www.judgesguild.com/pdf/rorystone.pdf

Enjoy
Robert Conley
Author of Map 5, 8, and 12, Wilderlands of High Fantasy

[jamesh]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

One thing is fact that nearly every hex has a encounter listed in it. Another is that the authors (of which I am one) tried to make each encounter relate to each other in subtle ways.

Programmed encounters versus random encounters, yes. I'm aware of the difference, but programmed encounters don't hold a lot of interest for me because...

What this does for your game is that you can start your players in any region of the Wilderland and they can pick a direction in which they want to do. You can quickly scan what they are getting into and use that as a framework to construct an adventure. In addition this allows you remain consistent if players ever choose to re-visit the area.

I can generate my own programmed encounters that do the same thing and they'll have the added bonus of being designed specifically for my players and their characters instead of being largely generic (i.e., designed to accomoodate any characters).

This is opposed to say the forgotten realms/greyhawk style that give you say a forest decribe what roughly in the forest and then leaves it to you fill out where all the encounter and locales are.

And truth be told, I much prefer this approach. It requires more work, but it makes for a individually unique campaign setting, something that mass produced preprogrammed encounters tend to limit by design.

For the wilderlands this is the role of the Player's Guide.

Which is why I think I'll be sticking to the Player's Guide.

The wilderlands take the opposite tack. We realized that the most tedious part of GMing is creating all the encounter and locales. Most GMs limit themselves to a couple of dozen at best because of time constraints. With the Wilderlands that limitation is removed.

It sounds like a great product for the GM who doesn't have time or energy to create or customize their own campaign setting, but the things that make it great for this kind of GM simultaneously make it sound like a poor investment for GMs who like to roll their own (i.e., create their unique versions of given setting).

Sure, you can always ignore the level of detail that the boxed set seems to provide, but if you're ignoring then why pay for it in the first place? I think that the Player's Guide will serve the latter group of aformentioned GMs better (I know that it will serve me better, at least) and be a more cost effective investment.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by jamesh

I can generate my own programmed encounters that do the same thing and they'll have the added bonus of being designed specifically for my players and their characters instead of being largely generic (i.e., designed to accomoodate any characters).

All I can say is that ask on the Necromancer boards and you will find that everyone one of us has a different wilderlands campaign. And I am not talking subtle variations like the difference between two FR campaigns or Greyhawk. I am talking where the themes are completely different.

Like for example mine which revolves more politics, and cultural conflicts as opposed to the sword and sorcery vision that the Player's Guide present. But yet I can use the boxed set because of the way the descriptions are wrote, I don't have to present the world in a sword and sorcery fashion.

Originally Posted by jamesh

And truth be told, I much prefer this approach. It requires more work, but it makes for a individually unique campaign setting, something that mass produced preprogrammed encounters tend to limit by design.

I can tell is that those encounter were certainly not mass produced. Over a dozen authors worked on that set each writing their section (within broad guidelines) just as you describe how you write your stuff. Except of course we don't have a specific group in mind.

If you look at the player's the region around City-State contains over 500 described locations, towns, ruins, lairs, islands, etc. And none was randomly generated produced by any other type of mass production. I wrote 300+ village description from the result of GMing the Wilderland since 1983. By buying you get not only me but the benifit of the experience of a dozen other GMs that have used the wilderlands.

As for the pre-programmed if you are running a campaign then by definition much it is pre-programmed. A campaign deals with places in a specific time and place. So there is a lot of stuff like geography, cultures, structures, history, etc that are part of that time and place. The boxed set help define that to a level where you can focus on crafting a story and a plot.

It is written in such a way that you can set just about any fantasy plot in there. If a different explanation of why the dwarves of Thunderhold left the Majestic Fastness works better than the dragon burrning them out. You can easily insert it but still use the fact there is a king named Nodre Iron-Helm, they worship Rosmerta, and there the Border Warden. That goes for basically any of the stuff written in the Wilderlands.

[jamesh]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

All I can say is that ask on the Necromancer boards and you will find that everyone one of us has a different wilderlands campaign. And I am not talking subtle variations like the difference between two FR campaigns or Greyhawk. I am talking where the themes are completely different.

We're talking about two different things, Robert. You're talking about thematic differences and I'm talking about actual physical differences in the setting itself. By defining every hex on a campaign map in minute detail, a campaign sourcebook limits the number of liberties that a GM can take with a setting by design (well, short of ignoring or re-writing the material in the supplement).

Exalted, for example, is wildly popular due in part specifically to the lack of such minute detail. One Storyteller's version of Creation (the Exalted setting) will be wildly different than another's, not just thematically, but in terms of physical composition (i.e., towns, cities, creatures, geographic features, etc), as well. There is less shared commonality here than there is between campaigns run in a setting where every last detail is spelled out.

But yet I can use the boxed set because of the way the descriptions are wrote, I don't have to present the world in a sword and sorcery fashion.

You're still using the descriptions, though, which means that your campaign will have a lot in common (again, not necessarily thematically, but physically) with other camapigns that use the same descriptions. Incidentally, thematic differences are possible in any setting or game system with or without pre-scripted encounters. Detailed encounters really don't make thematic tweaking any easier in my experience.

I can tell is that those encounter were certainly not mass produced. Over a dozen authors worked on that set each writing their section (within broad guidelines) just as you describe how you write your stuff.

And then all of those individual works were compiled into a a product that was printed en masse and marketed commercially, thus "mass produced". No, the encounters, weren't mass produced prior to their inclusion in the boxed set or its publication, but they became mass produced. Unless, of course, you're telling me is that each Wilderlands boxed set's content is different from that found in every other boxed set.

If you look at the player's the region around City-State contains over 500 described locations, towns, ruins, lairs, islands, etc. And none was randomly generated produced by any other type of mass production.

See above. By "mass produced" I literally meant "duplicated and published in large number", which again, unless the contents of each Wilderlands boxed set are entirely different from every other Wilderlands boxed set is very much the case. The Widlerlands boxed set and, therefore, everything in it was mass produced for purposes of commercial sale. Sorry for the confusion.

As for the pre-programmed if you are running a campaign then by definition much it is pre-programmed.

Not necessarily, but I'll refrain from explaining about character-driven campaigns here. There are plenty of resources online that explain, better than I can, the nature of player-driven campaigns, organic plot progression, etc. It's simply worth pointing out that planning events in advance or pre-scripting plot points isn't a necessary part of running a roleplaying campaign.

If a different explanation of why the dwarves of Thunderhold left the Majestic Fastness works better than the dragon burrning them out. You can easily insert it but still use the fact there is a king named Nodre Iron-Helm, they worship Rosmerta, and there the Border Warden. That goes for basically any of the stuff written in the Wilderlands.

Sure - which brings us back to ignoring or re-writing content in order to do your own thing. And that was my earlier point - if you buy content only to ignore and or rewrite it, was it not a waste of money? For me, I know that it certainly would be. This is why I'm not going to pick up the Wilderlands boxed set. I knwo that I'd be ignoring or re-writing a lot of it to suit my individual tastes.

Again, it sounds like a great resources for the GM in a time crunch or for the GM who likes to run thing "by the book, but for a GM who wants to create his own towns, encounters, etc - well, it seems like it would be a rather poor investment for many different reasons. And after your input, I'm 100% convinved that it woudl be a poor investment for me.

You can always feel free to comp me a boxed set for review if you feel that it might change my mind, but for the time being, I'm going to give it a pass in favor of the more open-ended nature of the Player's Guide for the reasons that I've given above.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by jamesh

We're talking about two different things, Robert. You're talking about thematic differences and I'm talking about actual physical differences in the setting itself. By defining every hex on a campaign map in minute detail, a campaign sourcebook limits the number of liberties that a GM can take with a setting by design (well, short of ignoring or re-writing the material in the supplement).

Exalted, for example, is wildly popular due in part specifically to the lack of such minute detail. One Storyteller's version of Creation (the Exalted setting) will be wildly different than another's, not just thematically, but in terms of physical composition (i.e., towns, cities, creatures, geographic features, etc), as well. There is less shared commonality here than there is between campaigns run in a setting where every last detail is spelled out.

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the point you are trying to make about campaign worlds.

To me something like Exhalted doesn't have a campaign world defined then it is obvious that you would make your own. With whatever geography, cities, history, creatures, etc you create. But still would be Exhalted as the game itself defines it's flavor.

I hope this make sense and is what you are talking about.

As for the current edition of Wilderlands. All I can say is that there are details that hamper your freedom to create and details that help. Necro, Judges Guild, and the authors really tried to make the boxed set have the details that helps not hamper a GM in creating their own world.

I know you said that it sounds like it helps time-pressed GMs but my experienced is that all GMs are time-pressed and they never have enough detail for their players.

I have no problem with your goals, I guess the only that I am perplexed is why buy the Player's Guide at all? Honestly it sounds like you better off just making your own world from scratch.

I am sorry I have no comp copy to pass on. All I can say the Rorystone download is representative of the boxed set.

Last if you are familar with Traveller at all. The Wilderlands are more like a sector supplement then something like Harn. Sure everyone buys a sector supplement is broadly playing with the same world with the same physical characteristics in the same location. But a world is so vast and the terms are defined so broad that my Hex 0103 Esalin - Charismatic Dictatorship with a thin atmosphere isn't going to be the same as your hex 0103 Esalin.

Even in traveller game that use the Third Imperium, some GMs protray the Imperium as a force for good, other protray it as a sinister evil., other have something in between.

The boxed set Wilderlands is more akin to Traveller then to a hyper detailed setting like Harn.

As for price $70 is steep for anything but Amazon has it for $44.

[Nahat Anoj]

Originally Posted by jamesh

What exactly does the Wilderlands boxed set offer that I don't get out of the Player's Guide to the Wilderlands?

*SNIP*

I gather from reading the introduction of said product that the boxed set is aimed squarely at the GM, but it seems to imply that the only things the boxed set adds to the setting are a large number of programmed encounters, some setting secrets (i.e., meta-plot), and one or two sentence descriptions of map hexes. While that's neat and would cut down on prep time, I'm not sure that it's worth $70.

In terms of what the boxed set offers over the PG, you've pretty much got it in this paragraph. Personally, it was a very disatisfying purchase for me, and I got it at 33% off - the maps are nice, but I will never use those programmed encounters. I would not recommend the boxed set to anyone who's not a hardcore Judges' Guild or Wilderlands fan. (the PG is an entirely different story, a SIGNIFICANTLY better work that every gamer should get)