[RPG]: The Fifth World Core Rulebook v.2, reviewed by Wil (2/2)

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12982.phtml

Wil's Summary:

A neo-tribal post-apocalyptic fantasy game that tries to break the mold of other fantasy settings.

Go to the full review for more information.

[Starshield]

I'm very interested in the Personality Mechanics. Did you ever find out how the Myers-Brigs was used in the game?

[Wil]

Originally Posted by Starshield

I'm very interested in the Personality Mechanics. Did you ever find out how the Myers-Brigs was used in the game?

Ooops, I thought I had caught that in the review. When you choose your archetype, you get a training point bonus if you have a particular personality type (for instance, the Iconoclast gets a bonus if the character's personality includes S and J). There is a mention of certain spells only, for instance, affecting Judging characters but as I noted the Magic section doesn't actually elaborate on it. The idea of using MBTI in rpgs is something I've seen before, but I'm damned if I can't figure out where else.

[Starshield]

Yeah, I've thought about using it myself in gaming but have not seen it used anywhere, so I was wondering if anyone HAD seen it used elsewhere. What a crummy sentence! Yeek!

[Wil]

Originally Posted by Starshield

Yeah, I've thought about using it myself in gaming but have not seen it used anywhere, so I was wondering if anyone HAD seen it used elsewhere. What a crummy sentence! Yeek!

Brand Robins actually has a blog entry about it.

[jefgodesky]

Wow--I guess Bill was right! We've been working with Bill Maxwell on the next iteration of the rules, and he cautioned me against putting out anything that we haven't gone over too thoroughly. I said most people understood the idea of a beta and open source, and "publish early, publish often," but he said we'd get some bad reviews on early stuff that'd probably stick with us for good. I hope this one review doesn't kill off the whole project before it even gets off the ground, though, and I hope people reading this will take the open source spirit to heart and offer their suggestions to make it better.

A lot of this is stuff we're actually already addressing. I appreciate your review, Wil, I really do; it gives us a very good list of points to hone in on as development continues. We originally wanted to get something out as quickly as possible so that we could involve the general public as quickly as possible, so I love to see points like these, they're what we were really hoping for. I just hope Bill's prophecy doesn't come completely true, and people reading this will be willing to come back and give us another look once we released version 1.0.

[Wil]

Originally Posted by jefgodesky

Wow--I guess Bill was right! We've been working with Bill Maxwell on the next iteration of the rules, and he cautioned me against putting out anything that we haven't gone over too thoroughly. I said most people understood the idea of a beta and open source, and "publish early, publish often," but he said we'd get some bad reviews on early stuff that'd probably stick with us for good. I hope this one review doesn't kill off the whole project before it even gets off the ground, though, and I hope people reading this will take the open source spirit to heart and offer their suggestions to make it better.

A lot of this is stuff we're actually already addressing. I appreciate your review, Wil, I really do; it gives us a very good list of points to hone in on as development continues. We originally wanted to get something out as quickly as possible so that we could involve the general public as quickly as possible, so I love to see points like these, they're what we were really hoping for. I just hope Bill's prophecy doesn't come completely true, and people reading this will be willing to come back and give us another look once we released version 1.0.

I completely understand, and in my ratings I didn't really include anything that was obviously WIP. Excepting, of course, some things that even a beta should have (like more elaboration on weapons or equipment).

But please, please for the love of Pete...cut back on the rhetoric in the final text. That's just a personal opinion, but larger companies (such as White Wolf) have weathered putting strong political or ideological messages in games but a smaller company might not. Your ideology might be right for all I know, but most people probably won't consider that.

The key I think should be accessibility - pages and pages of "movement talk" is likely going to turn off some people who otherwise might be interested. They might have no interest whatsoever in experiencing the world the way you envision, and that's only right because once they buy the book the world is, essentially, theirs. Delivering something that makes people go, "Wow, those are some cool ideas" without inundating them might get you better results. For example, I have a keen interest in what might be called "prehistory" - one of my favorite books is Robert Holdstock's Mythago Wood, and the idea of archetypal myths going back tens of thousands of years to cultures we have just scraps of knowledge about fascinates me. My favorite rpg is Tribe 8 - which tackles many of the same themes The Fifth World does. Tribe 8 accomplishes the collapse of modern civilization via supernatural means, so the sudden collapse makes a little more sense. I have no real interest, however, in neo-tribalism, eco-anarchism or any other related movement and discovering the bulk of the game dealt with those issues - without a lot of Cool Stuff independent of them - left a slightly negative impression. To myself, and a lot of other people, the collapse described in the game is going to really push the limits of credibility.

Finally, maybe I missed something but it seems like the game's namesake and the interaction with the Mayan calendar (which is what piqued my interest in the very beginning of the game) seems to have no solid relationship with the world as it winds up existing. Maybe you guys have some more stuff developed, but coming up with some unique take on the transition from one world to the other might be cool.

[jefgodesky]

That's part of the process we're in now--turning it more into what the world is, rather than what it isn't, making it more about the myth than the philosophy. Version 0.2 just tries to get the ideas down; in 0.3, we're focusing on presenting them well, and following them through in the mechanics. I think you're right, as it is, it is preachy. One of our top priorities right now is to tone that down.

Thanks for the suggestion about the Maya calendar--we'll keep that in consideration.

We didn't elaborate on weapons or equipment because they don't really play that much of a role; there will be more in 0.3, but it still won't be much. You make a tool, use it, and usually abandon it right there. We'll be elaborating more on how that works and the crunchy bits involved, but a chapter on equipment just wouldn't make sense in a world where possessions are ad-hoc and disposable like that.

I suppose you could run the game about picking berries like you said, but removing physical combat really just changes the kinds of conflicts that appear most often. In our playtest, one scenario we ran involved a draught, and the characters needed to discover why the water spirits were so alienated, and then put it right. Another one involved a tribe that dug up some old nuclear warheads.

Originally Posted by Wil

To myself, and a lot of other people, the collapse described in the game is going to really push the limits of credibility.

That's funny, because that's how every real-world civilization has collapsed. It never happens the way you hear about in most post-apocalyptic fiction. We're trying to make a realistic post-apocalyptic scenario, which is what makes it so important to get across the etic perspective, how a sustainable culture thinks of itself. Doing that without getting preachy, that's the challenge we're really focusing on now.

[Wil]

Originally Posted by jefgodesky

That's part of the process we're in now--turning it more into what the world is, rather than what it isn't, making it more about the myth than the philosophy. Version 0.2 just tries to get the ideas down; in 0.3, we're focusing on presenting them well, and following them through in the mechanics. I think you're right, as it is, it is preachy. One of our top priorities right now is to tone that down.

Thanks for taking it into consideration. I am only one reader, so definitely run things by the designer as well as any playtesters. Playtest groups that aren't in your immediate circle of friends (or even social circles) are probably good - my philosophy is that, even though they have the best intentions, friends lie more often than not when something you do sucks

Thanks for the suggestion about the Maya calendar--we'll keep that in consideration.

It might be kind of tricky, other games like Shadowrun have already touched on that sort of thing. It just kind of stuck out because it was mentioned and then kind of fell by the wayside in the text.

[qupteI suppose you could run the game about picking berries like you said, but removing physical combat really just changes the kinds of conflicts that appear most often. In our playtest, one scenario we ran involved a draught, and the characters needed to discover why the water spirits were so alienated, and then put it right. Another one involved a tribe that dug up some old nuclear warheads.[/quote]

Well, in a thread not related to our discussion someone put it very succinctly:

This is why I find those 'agenda' based games boring. As long as you follow the specific doctrine presented as 'good' in the game, you'll always win, because to present the other point of view as successful implies that it has at least some merit. People with agendas beyond creating an RPG with dramatic conflicts don't like to do this, and most of the time I can spot them instantly.

To me that speaks to several things. You say that all of the weapons are ad-hoc, created on the spot and discarded. What happens when someone finds a modern hunting knife, made of virtually indestructible alloy. It is objectively better than anything the hunter could knap out on their own. Your instinct might just be to work something into the game system that penalizes the character for keeping it (evil spirits, taint, social ramifications). When you do that, you're falling into trap I quoted above. Instead, the dramatic repercussions may be very compelling if the knife is kept.

Really, any post-apocalyptic game where the apocalypse is relatively nondestructive suffers from this with regards to everything from kitchen utensils to clothes to resource gathering - there's just too much from the modern world that will stick around and be useful for some period of time.

That's funny, because that's how every real-world civilization has collapsed. It never happens the way you hear about in most post-apocalyptic fiction. We're trying to make a realistic post-apocalyptic scenario, which is what makes it so important to get across the etic perspective, how a sustainable culture thinks of itself. Doing that without getting preachy, that's the challenge we're really focusing on now.

Well, that's a matter for people more erudite on civilization collapse than I. Personally to me the most intriguing thing is creating a compelling "future anthropology". Maybe just doing that, using all of the source material extensively quoted in the beta now but without pushing it to the forefront, the cultures and post-apocalypse civilization will stand on its own without the "preachiness"

[jefgodesky]

Sounds like you'll really like ver. 0.3 when it comes out, actually.

Originally Posted by Wil

Thanks for taking it into consideration. I am only one reader, so definitely run things by the designer as well as any playtesters. Playtest groups that aren't in your immediate circle of friends (or even social circles) are probably good - my philosophy is that, even though they have the best intentions, friends lie more often than not when something you do sucks

I know what you mean, and we caught that vibe from others, so we were already working on it by the time you wrote your review. Frankly, even I thought it was getting a little ham-handed, and it should be toned down a bit. Let it show through in the setting and the world, rather than just preaching. But with such a divergent worldview, I felt it was important to try to get it all down first, as a starting point for some open source work to begin.

This is why I find those 'agenda' based games boring. As long as you follow the specific doctrine presented as 'good' in the game, you'll always win, because to present the other point of view as successful implies that it has at least some merit. People with agendas beyond creating an RPG with dramatic conflicts don't like to do this, and most of the time I can spot them instantly.

I very much agree with this. And ultimately, I want to build in a lot of room in the Fifth World of groups that don't agree, people trying to do something else, and let them just run into the same problems real civilizations and real tribal peoples do.

Originally Posted by Wil

You say that all of the weapons are ad-hoc, created on the spot and discarded. What happens when someone finds a modern hunting knife, made of virtually indestructible alloy. It is objectively better than anything the hunter could knap out on their own. Your instinct might just be to work something into the game system that penalizes the character for keeping it (evil spirits, taint, social ramifications). When you do that, you're falling into trap I quoted above. Instead, the dramatic repercussions may be very compelling if the knife is kept.

No, I was going to throw in a few things like that. But such things would be pretty durned rare 400 years in the future. Most economically useful metals--like a modern hunting knife--rust. After a century, anything you're not actively taking care of will be fairly useless. As an ore, rusted iron is less useful than even low-grade ore you might mine. So, just setting realistic limits for how deep you'd need to mine to find iron ore deposits that weren't used up, or how long you have to wait for bog iron to form, or how hard it is to work rusted iron as an ore, would be enough to keep these things fairly rare. Effective as hell if you happen to find one, but you may only have one such artifact per village or band.

Originally Posted by Wil

Well, that's a matter for people more erudite on civilization collapse than I. Personally to me the most intriguing thing is creating a compelling "future anthropology". Maybe just doing that, using all of the source material extensively quoted in the beta now but without pushing it to the forefront, the cultures and post-apocalypse civilization will stand on its own without the "preachiness"

That's the goal right there. I hope you'll check out the next version and let us know if you think we've made it any closer to that.