Why is it that so many games have totally chintzy chargen rules that let you make total chumps rather than competent characters? I understand the argument "character growth" but man, this just seems to ignore the realities of a lot of games. I can think of two reasons, I'm sure there are others:
(1) "Chump to god" is not the general trope of many genres. Indiana Jones doesn't go through a huge amount of ability growth in the course of his stories. Most superheros don't either. RPGs aren't genre fiction, of course, and new powers is a big reward for most players, so I don't think static characters make sense, but come on.
(2) Many games are played for a short term, say six to ten sessions max, and then stop. If the only chargen rules available assume "chump to god" this is going to mean that either the game doesn't get played or the GM has to wing it. It wouldn't be hard for authors to put in a few options for chargen that better enable the GM to figure out how to mesh the system with campaign goals. Again, many GMs have the experience to do this... but many don't, or won't, or worry about the rules lawyers among their players.
Why is it that so many games have totally chintzy chargen rules that let you make total chumps rather than competent characters?
Not sure if this comment is directed specifically at HEX, or the review... or whatever.
If you're referring to HEX, what I can tell you is that the character generations are far from "chintzy", whatever implication you meant by using that word (and one assumes that it's not meant positively or as a compliment). HEX gives you a baseline for putting ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, and their abilities and skills grow accordingly the more they continue to be in extraordinary circumstances. In HEX they don't become gods... far from it... but they certainly can develop along a line where they are more mature and powerful than when they first started out. Which is good, and I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that.
If, however, that doesn't work for what you want, the math of HEX character generation is extremely simple and well-balanced -- if you want more powerful characters to start, simply bump up what they start off with, while the mooks & minions stay the same. Of course, to be fair, you'll want to make sure you keep an eye on what your masterminds and arch-villains have, unless that kind of thing is not important to you (I do LOT of hand-waving and fudging when it comes to the arch-villains... more often they not they escape, so as to return again another day, but not always).
If you want a supers game, though, you're likely better served by Truth & Justice, Capes, or Mutants and Masterminds.
Again, I'm not really sure what you were getting at with the comment about "chintzy" character generation. If you pulled that idea from this review, well that would make sense, although I'd probably disagree with the reviewer on that if that's what he was truly saying. There are several other reviews of HEX here on RPG.net that you might also want to check out (particularly CW Richeson's) that have a different perspective on this issue.
Ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances that become themselves extraordinary over time. This, too, is a standard pulp trope... well, maybe not for Doc Savage, but certainly in other wide swaths of pulp stories and movies. And often what makes them extraordinary is NOT what they can do, in re: skills and abilities, but how they manifest themselves in the stories, their heart, who they are, and who they become. You mentioned Indiana Jones -- he's the furthest thing from a super-hero you can get, but what makes him stand out is what he does, how he reacts, and the risks he takes to either get what he's after or who he wants to protect or save.
In that regard, HEX is one of the best games hands down to bring that spirit of the pulps out via the Motivation/Theme/Flaw & Style Point mechanics. You may have "chintzy" or chump stats (although I'd strongly disagree that such is the case), but the expenditure of Style Points (received as a reward for GOOD role-playing) makes all the difference when it comes to critical rolls.
I'm not saying your criticism isn't valid... it just doesn't apply to HEX.
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Last edited by madwabbit; 10-29-2007 at 04:56 PM..
Re: [RPG]: Hollow Earth Expedition, reviewed by The Metal Pope (5/3)
I will be honest and say that when I first got HEX and started creating characters I was a little concerned about how weak the characters would be, but that is coming from many years playing in the D20 world of "I don't need to roll because my base damage is enough to kill anything you throw at me." After creating a few characters my fear and concerns were gone, you can make a character any power level you want and with style points you can even have a weak character perform fantastic feats that were not thought possible.
It all comes down to roleplaying. If you want to kill everything or overcome every problem that you come across without having to use some inginuity or roleplaying, then HEX is probably not for you. ew is, in my opinion, at it's heart a roleplaying game, not a miniatures combat game.
The Ubiquity system has a lot of possibilities, only a few of which have been explored and I see alot more things coming form Exile to improve the play of the game. I have been playing RPG's since 1977 and seen alot of systems come and go. I think HEX is in this for the long haul, not just another flash in the pan D20 copy.
Not sure if this comment is directed specifically at HEX, or the review... or whatever.
If you're referring to HEX, what I can tell you is that the character generations are far from "chintzy", whatever implication you meant by using that word (and one assumes that it's not meant positively or as a compliment).
I don't have HEX so I can't speak to it specifically. I was reacting to the characterization in the review (which may be wrong), but also to the chargen rules in many other games, which feel decidedly cheap (hence my use of chintzy in the second definition of "stingy, miserly": http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chintzy).
Quote:
In HEX they don't become gods... far from it... but they certainly can develop along a line where they are more mature and powerful than when they first started out. Which is good, and I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that.
I don't, per se, but often times the points you've got to make starting characters are so dear that it feels awfully hard to stat out myself. I'm not trying to stat myself like Bill Gates in the classic Onion article ("Bill Gates Gives Self 18 Dexterity, 20 Charisma" http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29743), but give myself the skill points I'd have in a lot of areas, including my professional expertise (teaching, statistics, writing, giving a good presentation, etc.), serious hobbies (cooking, playing guitar, singing, playing/running a good RPG game, a reader's knowledge of history, a bit of martial arts, etc.), and everyman skills (driving, basic finance, computing, etc.). IMO statting myself as a starting character would be quite difficult in most games and I don't consider myself to be particularly extraordinary. (Of course, one argument to be made is that I am not, in fact, a "starting character" but have built up some XP, but this just goes in a circle.)
Quote:
You mentioned Indiana Jones -- he's the furthest thing from a super-hero you can get, but what makes him stand out is what he does, how he reacts, and the risks he takes to either get what he's after or who he wants to protect or save.
I disagree that Indy's just an ordinary guy. Indy is a professor, and one of the leading ones in his field. This will mean a heck of a lot of his creation points will be gone simply to be competent in that. He's also tough enough to survive his adventures, kick ass (not the absolute best at it, but decent enough to beat up a truckload of Nazis and not just by luck), etc. I bet making Indy in most game systems' chargen rules would be VERY hard, though it would probably be possible in Storyteller Adventure!. Now Indy is probably an experienced character and thus one could meaningfully ask "so what?" He's certainly more of a solo character and RPGs usually aren't solo endeavors, which changes things too: niche protection becomes an issue, for instance, and huge imbalances of power among the characters often piss players off. But I just get a sense from a lot of game designers that the only chargen rules provided make for pretty chumpy characters.
If you want a supers game, though, you're likely better served by Truth & Justice, Capes, or Mutants and Masterminds.
This comment is a waste of space. He didn't say he wanted a character who shot lasers out of his eyes. Rather, as far as I can tell, he wants to be able to play a competent military officer as a starting character.
And that IS a problem with HEX. It's not a Pulp genre issue at all... Spirit of the Century, Adventure!, Savage Worlds, and Pulp HERO all assume a higher level of starting PC competence than HEX does.
Not that it's a hard thing to fix, if you're so inclined. But, still, more than 15 experience points would have been a welcome addition to the Rules As Written.
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But, still, more than 15 experience points would have been a welcome addition to the Rules As Written.
I have to, respectfully, disagree with you on this subject. Not the entirety of your previous post, hence the paraphrase, but this particular point. For your style of play this would have been a welcome addition, and I'm sure that for a lot of gamers this would have been a welcome addition. However, the "thing" that makes Hollow Earth Expedition stand out from the games that you mention by name:
Spirit of the Century, Adventure!, Savage Worlds, and Pulp HERO
is that Hollow Earth Expedition doesn't have to start characters at the same level of competence as those games do, and in fact, I strongly believe that the unique charm and elegance of Hollow Earth Expedition draws upon the very fact that unlike those games it does the exact opposite and allows characters to begin their adventures as less than pulp super stars, and instead begin as the everyman. From these humble beginnings spring forth the most amazing of adventures, tales, and heroic deeds. When a character is not overly competent their victories mean that much more, they have that much more intensity, and they are that much more satisfying.
It means very little when a great man accomplishes a great thing, but when a normal man or woman, the every man (you or me or our cousin or whoever), accomplishes the same great thing it is that much greater for it. Also, from the humble beginnings comes the most interesting and exciting role playing moments. Success is the reward in itself, but in Hollow Earth Expedition failure can be just as rewarding as it makes the story that much more interesting, and of course when a character rises from the fdepths of failure and gains the pinnacle of success the climb was that much more exciting.
I have run a session or two of Hollow Earth Expedition, and I can honestly say that 15 points provide a well rounded character. I believe it can provide a player with a competent officer in the military. I don't believe that it will provide a character that will be able to single handily solve an entire groups worth of problems, but I do know that the character would be a major asset to any group.
Even the example of a competent military officer does leave one with the opinion, at least this someone, that the character is probably not a starting level character in any game. An officer, even one that is merely competent and not great, has to learn how to become competent. If the background you write states that the character has progressed to earn higher ranks, or has learned from his experiences then he should start at a higher point total.
Where you see a problem with Hollow Earth Expedition that these other games that you mention don't suffer from I see the exact opposite.Where you see a problem I see an opportunity that leads to more fun.
You're right:Spirit of the Century, Adventure!, Savage Worlds, and Pulp HERO all start their characters out being much more competent than the Hollow Earth Expedition characters, but that doesn't stop Hollow Earth Expedition from being a game that drives characters to do the most amazing things, that drives a level of excitement rarely seen in RPGS these days, and it does it all while having less competent characters.
Less is more.
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