Ok, so, I've mentioned this on a couple forums already, but I thought I would toss this up here also.
The Guild of Blades will soon be moving into some new digs. More accurately, we're planning to open a store that will serve both as our new manufacturing center and as a game retail store for our products and an eclectic selections of others. As part of this move, we'll also be opening the store up to print and copy services. Now, predominantly its planned for those services to be targeted locally and while we can certainly produce POD books (we do so currently for our own productions) and other products, its not our intent to become the next POD service provider for the industry.
That being said, one of the things we are excited about in this move is that we are acquiring a couple new machines for our shop and the combination of these machines looks like they will allow for us to produce POD playing cards. Now, I know this has been a sought after option for a goodly number of small publishers for a while, so I thought I would post here to ask what sort of interest there would be in such.
At a glance we would be looking at the following for the cards (note, I have yet to see final production samples yet from these machines, so this is still tentative at this point. At least until I can see finished product and get a real feel for our production issues and labor for making the cards).
1) Cards would be printed on a 12pt cover stock or 14 pt index stock. That is the thickest stock our new printer could handle. It should be noted that this stock is a bit thinner than traditional playing cards, but not a lot thinner. And that said stock has a bit less elasticity.
2) Cards would be printed onto a glossy stock, but not get a varnish of UV flood coating, so they would be shinny to the extent that printing photos on glossy paper can be shinny, but not to the degree that a traditional book cover with flood coating or laminate would.
3) Cards would have to be printed in groups of 9 or 18. Though multiple groups could be merged to create larger decks for packaging. If printed in groups of 9, they would have to be printed in even increments, not odd.
4) The cards would be evenly die cut. No half measures at trying to get decks close to the right size by cutting them on paper cutters and then rounding corners. They should be die cut evenly in size with rounded corners.
5) They could be printed 1/1, 4/1, or 4/4. Pricing would likely be $.05, $.06 and $.07 per card, respectively.
6) Decks would just be packaged in some appropriate sized sealed bag. We could provide blank white card boxes for decks that were not too big for a small extra charge. We could print B&W or color "wraps" that you could attach, or even do the attaching for you, for a cost. Sadly, our die cutting options aren't really giving us good options for producing card tuck boxes with the printing on them.
Well, more accurately, we could print the tuck boxes and die cut the finished shape, but we can't die cut in the "fold lines" that would let the box actually easily fold up into a box and we don't have a machine to automated the gluing of that box together. So in short, that box would only sort of halfway be a box and you would have to figure out how to get the fold lines and manually doing the gluing, which is why we don't really see that as an option.
Anyways, we're just looking at feedback for this. Who's interested. Who thinks the production as listed as above would be viable for POD game cards. Who thinks it wouldn't and why?
I'm releasing a free online ccg in a few months, once Nano and Xmas are out of the way. I'd be interested in opening up the possibility of making the cards available physically if there was any demand....or hell, even just a few batches for myself.
One thing to consider is, we can print and package in sets. We won't be able to do randomization in packaging, so that would be something you would have to figure out on your end if publishing a TCG.
Also, we can't do foil packaging, as most card "packs" are produced. Though once we open up printing on these, if demand warranted, I could in theory have a new blank white tuck box made that was smaller so as to best fit 15 cards or under only, which could serve as a substitutes to foil packaging. But that's something I can decide until I get a feel for the ongoing demand.
Ryan, I would certainly take advantage of it for my company the Veritas Games Co. I think I can probably speak for about two other companies I know who'd also be interested in POD cards for test marketing, very short runs, etc.
By the way, Ryan, if you are trying to feel out the market, BGDF is a MUCH better place to ask this question. If you are capable of drop shipping under another vendor's name then you've got lots of options available to you (almost any PDF vendor who sells card game products).
Pricing looks way too high. 9 cards is an 8.5 x 11 sheet of cardstock. Switching from paper to cardstock shouldn't result in charging $0.36 for what Lulu bills $0.02 for or $0.63 for what Lulu bills $0.15 for. Cutting, collating, and packaging should be separate fees, just as covers and binding are with most POD services.
Lulu has been selected for this comparison due to its position as one of the more expensive pod services.
As for fold lines on boxes, if you're using a die cutter, fold lines can be accomplished by getting the die made to form cut the fold lines as well as the shape, then filing down the fold line stamp blades to blunt, shorter edges, so they leave an impression rather than slicing through the cardstock.
Pricing looks way too high. 9 cards is an 8.5 x 11 sheet of cardstock. Switching from paper to cardstock shouldn't result in charging $0.36 for what Lulu bills $0.02 for or $0.63 for what Lulu bills $0.15 for. Cutting, collating, and packaging should be separate fees, just as covers and binding are with most POD services.
Dana, your numbers aren't comparable at all. Ryan's fees are for double-sided cards (hinted at by his notation of 4/4 which means 4 color both sides). If so, Lulu would charge 30 cents per double sided color page (not 15 cents) and they'd tack on a setup fee, and it would not be on 12 point stock, cut, and rounded into cards.
Further, Lulu charges a binding fee of $4.53 whether or not you want things delivered without binding (at least their cost calculator works that way). Ryan quoted no setup fee.
Ryan is soliciting interest in CARD printing, it seems perfectly reasonable to quote things in terms of the final per-card cost including cutting and collating. He clearly hasn't firmed up all pricing, and is in investigation mode. In this instance, I don't think we can really expect any highly structured costing models. He's not taking orders. In my mind he's effectively asking if 7 cents per card (presumably plus shipping) is low enough to generate any interest.
I think your biggest obstacle, Ryan, is actually going to be shipping. Shipping costs could drive up the per unit cost A LOT, particularly if you don't ship via USPS. Still, it's a great idea for prototypes and it MAY (depending on shipping costs) be suitable for direct sales. It would almost definitely be good for direct sales if you could drop ship, as that would pass the shipping directly onto the consumer without adding on shipping to the game publisher you are working with.
Regarding pricing Dana, you are right. In raw paper costs and toner/print usage costs it comes to just under $.02 a card for a sheet of 4/4 printed on a nice glossy, heavy weight stock like a 12pt cover or 14pt index.
The rest if that pricing comes from where and tear on the die cutter machine and the cost of replacement blades, labor, and of course, a profit margin. The labor is the biggest issue. The die cutter is not fast, requires manual sheet loading and positioning and before the die cutter can be set up to do a run, there needs to be a double check of the clients files to make sure each set of 9 cards is correctly positioned on the sheet to insure proper trim registration.
The die cutting is the real trick and it seems to be where other POD production companies have stumbled on their quest to offer a similar service. Unfortunately, there is no "mid range" solution to this problem nor any affordable high volume solutions and most of the equipment that can do the volume is very expensive and and designed to handle considerable volumes.
Truth be told, if we were not looking for this exact same solution to allow the Guild to both produce expandable card games and to do in house die cutting of war game counters, I double this would make sense for us either. However, since we are looking for additional avenues of expansion and opening the new store, we'll have plenty of extra production space and can afford to buy 2,3,4,etc of these die cutters as needed to handle the necessary volumes. These are computerized die cutters with cutting blades that move to dot he cuts and not pressurized of clamp style cutters in the more traditional sense. That's why they can't produce fold lines. The closest they can do is a partial cut through a stock to create a groove, which can create a guide to allow for making a fold easier, but of course, that comes at a weakening of the overall structure. Additionally, trying to get uniform partial depth cuts is extremely challenging, would come with a great deal of waste in the attempts, and is likely a level of operation I can not expect employees to tackle reliably.
Lee, we'll consider the drop ship option once we have the new store set up. We ship everything via USPS, as only a crazy person would rely on the UPS service in this area. Right now we batch mail orders out only twice per week on the average week. Though perhaps once we're set up in the new shop we'll move to daily shipments. I wouldn't want to commit to drop shipping anything until I know we could do that.
Ryan, you might want to consider obtaining a traditional stamp mill die cutter for cutting the cards. Makes more sense to buy one low end stamping mill that can cut 20 or more sheets at a time, rather than a computerised cutting mill that does one sheet at a time. Even if you had 10 computerized cutters, they won't match the productivity of a single stamping die mill.
This missing "mid range" solutions are typically marketed to places like auto repair shops, vehicle customizers, and the like. My mechanic has a W6A Bench Multipress 2-ton hydraulic press in his shop. The thing is all of 3 feet high, a foot and a half wide, and about two feet deep, mounted on a work bench. They sell for about $1500 used.
Then find a die manufacturer in your area and get a 2 point, 1 inch steel rule cutting die fabricated, along with 8 or 10 8.5x11 steel trays that have lugs on the underside to automatically line them up properly with the press bed on the press. Nice thing about custom steel rule dies, when you have several of them made, the manufacturers often offer free or low cost sharpening services which drastically extend the life of the die compared to what you're using now. Line the trays with padded cutting bed tape and the steel rule dies will last even longer.
These items will set you back about $2500, probably a good bit more than the setup you use now. However, with a single cycle of the hydraulic ram, you'll be cutting about 25 sheet of cards. A W6A can stamp approximately 4 times a minute (which is the reason for multiple trays, so two people can keep production at a high capacity). How long would it take to cut 900 cards with the system you currently use?
On top of that, you could also get a steel rule die fabricated that will let you cut and crease box blanks with a single cycle, though the production rate for that would be ridiculously slow, one sheet at a time.
And on top of that, it opens the world of die stamping for you as well. You could stamp your own custom 3D plastic game pieces for your various risk and axis & allies variants, for example.
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