The lens I'm viewing LARP is closer to theatric or literary theory (ie. it's an interactive narrative)
Feel free to discuss some of the thoughts here if you wish
Last Note: I'm not a tabletop RPG player, by any stretch of the imagination. So, I'm using frameworks that I'm familiar with to contemplate or evaluate LARP. If that offends you, I make no apologies.
Re: LARP as Chaotic Fiction... (theory discussion)
So, when I click that link I have to follow another link to try and figure out what you mean by "Chaotic Fiction" - except there isn't a clear definition there, just another link to a place that might explain it, and so on.
Perhaps you could sum up the definitions of you terms for us?
Using the dictionary definitions of "theatre" and "fiction", I think LARP generally isn't either, though it certainly incorporates elements of both, but I assume you mean something different and specific by "Chaotic Fiction" or "Chaotic Theatre".
Re: LARP as Chaotic Fiction... (theory discussion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianDR
So, when I click that link I have to follow another link to try and figure out what you mean by "Chaotic Fiction" - except there isn't a clear definition there, just another link to a place that might explain it, and so on.
Perhaps you could sum up the definitions of you terms for us?
To make it easier, I've provided a direct link to both articles mentioned in the discussion thread. (And I can repost my thread of discussion here, if desired.)
The author Spacebass describes chaotic fiction (best) as follows:
"I define chaotic fiction as a fictional construct that begins with a set of rules, uses those rules to run its scenario through an organic "computer" comprised of audience and author, and ends with a finite body of work that was not predetermined. This is to say that, though the authors (those who set the rules and started the production of the fiction in motion) may have been able to predict with some measure of certainty what they might end up with upon completion of the product, since they did not have complete control during production of every element of creation, they could not say with absolute certainty beforehand exactly what would be created by the process.
Why chaotic fiction? Well, the chaotic part describes the fact that the final product is not predetermined but rather unpredictable. And the fiction part is because what is being created isn't real, it's imagined. Chaotic fiction is produced in tandem between the authors or performers and the audience or players, and requires input from both sides. It begins with a set of ideas and ends wherever the performance or play may take it. The authors may set it in motion but they must work together with their audience to see its conclusion for the first time themselves. By its nature, it is improvisational in its production."
I'll preface one part, what is meant by "rules" is not a reference to the mechanics of game or it's applicability to the gamespace. It's how the narrative is presented to its audience for consumption. In other words, it's use of communication methods and media to engage the audience to act upon or within the narrative.
To me, unlike an Alternate Reality Game (ARG), Chaotic Theatre places a premium on the interaction of the audience with the narrative architectural components in a live setting.
However, I think LARP could meet the overarching definition that Spacebass provided for "Chaotic Fiction".
Re: LARP as Chaotic Fiction... (theory discussion)
There is some existing discussion of how larp is chaotic, for example this article which goes into applying chaos theory to larp organisation: http://users.tkk.fi/~mmontola/chaos.html
What you're suggesting, and what the article above says, seems uncontraversial to me. As for terms, I think that "interactive drama" (an alternative term for larp) is better. I think that interactivity implies chaos, so long as there isn't railroading going on.
Re: LARP as Chaotic Fiction... (theory discussion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Paddy
There is some existing discussion of how larp is chaotic, for example this article which goes into applying chaos theory to larp organisation: http://users.tkk.fi/~mmontola/chaos.html
I should point out that within Spacebass' conjecture on "Chaotic Fiction" are 3 axes.
'Ruleset','Authorship','Coherence' (History is the unofficial 4th axis).
All of the axes are used as ways of measuring the chaos (how linear or deterministic) within the fiction. History is merely a way of establishing that an ending exists for the narrative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Paddy
As for terms, I think that "interactive drama" (an alternative term for larp) is better. I think that interactivity implies chaos, so long as there isn't railroading going on.
"Interactive Narrative" may be more apropos, given that drama has a specific meaning.
However, the word Interactive doesn't necessarily translate to chaos.
The "Make your own Adventure" style of books are pieces of interactive fiction.
However, it is far more restrictive in terms of the actions that can be taken.
In that sense, Chaotic may be a better term in order to describe a narrative with no pre-established set of endings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Paddy
What you're suggesting, and what the article above says, seems uncontraversial to me.
My concern on controversy focuses mainly on the notion that the lens I'm using to view or frame my thoughts on LARP are not derived from the materials of RPG.
I'm more likely to read Dave Szulborski's book "This is Not a Game" or conference notes on "Game Studies" (more oriented to Computer/Video Game studies).
(I'm also fascinated by the concepts of "Big Games" such as Pac-manhattan..)
Re: LARP as Chaotic Fiction... (theory discussion)
One problem is that you have a vast aray of different possible styles of LARP.
Pregen one shot Salon LARPs are probably the closest to what you mean by chaotic fiction.
Build your own, Player driven, Campaigns are not. (The Game controllers function as mechaincs of the system, not as authors, and there is no finite end to the work.
I would say that just as there is an "overlapping space" where Table Top and LARP merge and interact, there are "overlapping spaces" where Chaotic Fiction and and LARP merge.
However, I have also seen people on this board attempt to create equivelencies between LARP and other "Forms" before. Usually so they can apply specialised terms from other genres to discussion of LARP. (as you seem to want to do with "Rules" "Authorship" "Chaos" and "Coherence") And the results have uniformly been dissapointing, because while there is overlap, the areas of divergence are both large and poorly understood (usually by both sides.)
Also
"Chaotic" versus "Random"
A Chaotic system is one in which you know where it is now, and you know the direction it is currently headed in, but in which your ability to predict where it will end attenuates with time.
A Random System is one in which you do not know where it will go next, but in which you can predict the aggregate of it's total.
LARP (at least in my experience) tend to be both Random and Chaotic, in different degrees. Boffer Larps tend toward the more chaotic (and become less so the more you know the participants) Salon Larps, because of their heavier reliance on randomisers, tend to be Random, With a chaotic element introduced by the Players choices.
Wargame LARPs tend to simply be random. (You pretty much know the possible range of outcomes in advance, someone wins, or loses. Everyone getting together for a pint instead and then heading off to conquer Scotland rarely happens.) Some of the boffer Larps I've attended have been pretty much war game LARPS.
Oh, Fiction also implies the presence of a story arc or arcs. Some LARPS have this. Others are simply situational (there is no progression or development, merely exploration of a situation.)
Re: LARP as Chaotic Fiction... (theory discussion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LARP_Chronicles
I should point out that within Spacebass' conjecture on "Chaotic Fiction" are 3 axes.
'Ruleset','Authorship','Coherence' (History is the unofficial 4th axis).
All of the axes are used as ways of measuring the chaos (how linear or deterministic) within the fiction. History is merely a way of establishing that an ending exists for the narrative.
So you've got several scales that describe larp and you're saying each scale effects how chaotic the fictional situation created in the larp is.
For the "Authorship" axis, it seems that you're saying the more control the players have over the setup of the fiction the more chaotic things will be. That seems to include both authorship of the setting and the fiction. I'm not sure I'd agree that player-written characters create more chaotic fictions than organiser-written characters. Or that it makes that much difference who writes the setting. When players write a lot of the material, the overall result tends to be more varied but less connected. Highly connected material tends to be more chaotic, because it forms a more interactive system. A bunch of player-created PCs with little relationship to each other tend to be rather predictable: nothing much of interest happens, and if it does it's imposed by GMS.
But then it also seems that you're saying that "Authorship" is the difference between player plotting and GM-imposed story arcs. I think there's some lack of clarity there, because as you also ascribe "story arc" to the "Rules" axis (which to me suggests that either the axis is completely wrongly named or you've misinterpreted what it was intended for) and "plot" to the "Coherence" axis. All three of those things sound like the same thing to me: GM railroading. So you're ascribing railroading to all three axes. Railroading certainly will reduce chaos, because it ignores PC action.
Re: LARP as Chaotic Fiction... (theory discussion)
I'm going to repost my remarks from unfiction here.
As I have already posted the links to Spacebass' original remarks, which had spurred my thoughts.
My remarks in their entirety (previously posted on Unfiction)
1st Axis: Authorship -
To quote SpaceBass: "This defines who has more control over the development of the fiction, the people who produce it or those who engage with it."
In a broad sense, this could apply to chaotic theatre (and LARP).
For example,
A typical "Vampire" game (Axis -> Audience):
The narrative may be more defined by the actions and plotting of the players than the grand motif of the GameMaster/Storyteller.
(In fact, the genre encourages plotting by the players)
A Theatre-Style Convention-based game or a "Host a Murder Mystery" Event (Axis -> Architects):
The narrative may be more defined by the character writeups crafted by the GMs, with the players embodying a persona.
3rd Axis: Coherence - "This refers to the amount of plot exhibited in the fictional construct." (Spacebass)
I'll address the Ruleset axis in a moment. However, as noted in the Undefining ARGs article, Coherence does have a relation to Authorship.
Narratives with little to no plot will be more reliant on audience authorship.
For LARP, this can also be distinguished.
A game organized by the Camarilla Fan Club will have a significant amount of "plot", especially given that it's part of a network of games across the globe, with a control hierarchy pertaining to narrative elements.
Other LARPs may veer toward "participatory drama". You play a character with a modicum of history but the narrative is a more emotional act. The story focuses on how each character's emotional and personal journey and is derived from the actions and decisions of the player.
2nd Axis: Ruleset -
As noted by Spacebass: "What I refer to are the restrictions the authors impose upon the framework in which they present their campaign and the amount of the campaign itself that has been planned in advance."
As I understand this axis, it focuses on the narrative and the framework for which the narrative is presented and acted upon.
In some degree, LARPs have had this axis defined for years.
It is how we distinguish between an episodic/campaign/chronicle-oriented LARP and a "one-shot" or Parlor LARP.
Parlor LARPs have a pre-defined narrative.
The narrative for a Chronicle or Campaign LARP will be hashed out in episodic arcs.
Often times, such episodic arcs will require continuous adjustment based on the actions of the player.
4th "unofficial" Axis: History - One can make several arguments as it relates to the axis of "History" and it's relation to narratives.
Do reviews of an interactive narrative (virtual or live) constitute archival evidence?
Can an interactive narrative a persistent gameverse where each chapter is built on the previous, and establishes an internal gameverse archive?
What if the narrative is an ongoing continuous activity?
Does replayability change the evaluation of the construct?
Re: LARP as Chaotic Fiction... (theory discussion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Paddy
So you've got several scales that describe larp and you're saying each scale effects how chaotic the fictional situation created in the larp is.
Since I've posted my original remarks from unfiction. The Axes are simply used as means to describe the qualities of a work of chaotic fiction.
The axis of Authorship has a scale with one end being the "architects', the other being the "audience"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Paddy
For the "Authorship" axis, it seems that you're saying the more control the players have over the setup of the fiction the more chaotic things will be.
No, no, no, and no!
The authorship axis merely points who exerts more control of the development (or creation) of the narrative. As I make in my original argument, a classic example of where the players exert more control over the narrative is Vampire: The Masquerade.
In that type of game, the players exert more control over the development of the narrative and the narrative architectural elements. Typically, by their use of allies, influences, and other skills/abilities
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Paddy
But then it also seems that you're saying that "Authorship" is the difference between player plotting and GM-imposed story arcs. I think there's some lack of clarity there, because as you also ascribe "story arc" to the "Rules" axis (which to me suggests that either the axis is completely wrongly named or you've misinterpreted what it was intended for) and "plot" to the "Coherence" axis.
"Ruleset" is the axis for the presentation of the narrative and how much of the narrative has been determined (or pre-written). The scale's poles are "Order" or "Chaos".
Order simply means that it is a tightly-controlled narrative. The audience is participating through the means provided and merely discovering the narrative versus crafting it.
As I state in my argument, In LARP, the classification of "Ruleset" has existed for a while. Episodic versus Parlor (or One-Shot).
Whether "Ruleset" is mis-named, you can take up with Spacebass on Unfiction.
However, I will point out one detail missing. ARGs, unlike RPGs and LARPs (typically), have a built-in aspect. Players are not given the rules of how the universe works or doesn't work.
They are required to figure it out. So "Ruleset" is in keeping with the concept of a meta-verse for which the players must figure out how to use the tools given and what the limits are.
"Coherence" is the axis for the extensive nature of the plot behind the narrative.
For LARP, I'd dare say that this could be used to quantify how inter-connected all of the characters in the narrative are and how extensive their backstory is (known to the players or only known to the GMs/STs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Paddy
All three of those things sound like the same thing to me: GM railroading. So you're ascribing railroading to all three axes. Railroading certainly will reduce chaos, because it ignores PC action.
Ok, a few things (and please take a breath):
The chaotic in chaotic fiction merely describes how linear or deterministic the fiction is based on the actions of the audience. (In other words, how easily can the architects predict the final form of the narrative?)
The axes are used as a means after the narrative is over to evaluate where any given ARG (or other object of chaotic play) could be classified.
None of the axes are ascribing any general tendencies to GM railroading, beyond going to the extremes on each axis.
By it's nature, chaotic play is about interactivity between the audience and the constructs of the architects.
I am expecting to post my thoughts on the communication dynamics later this week.
If no one objects, I'll crosspost the remarks here.
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