[RPG]: Immortals, reviewed by John Smith (3/2)

[RPGnet Reviews]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14301.phtml

John Smith's Summary:

Some good ideas but suffers from high price and cheap marketing tricks.

Go to the full review for more information.

[C.W.Richeson]

Thanks for the review, John!

Have you considered that the information on the "blood bathers" may be included to provide the reader with information on serial killers so they can include one in a chronicle as an antagonist (or, hell, protagonist)? I'm sure any RPG company would love to produce something so sensationalistic that the news picked it up, but I have trouble believing this is the goal when the presentation mirrors past books in terms of what it's trying to do - bring some real world knowledge to the WoD reader.

[Wood]

The first chapter is a marketing stunt? That's a hell of an accusation to make, and one that the writer of the chapter -- Matt McFarland, who really is above such things, and would not even think of doing it -- would take serious issue with.

[DeusIrae]

Indeed, that's a very flimsy charge. The concept of gaining immortality by bathing in blood is a classic horror trope, and completely reasonable fodder for an nWoD supplement. If you were to update it to the modern day and build a campaign or scenario around it, as a GM one of the first things you'd want to know is how the bad-guy NPC avoids getting caught by the cops.

I haven't actually seen the content, but regardless of its detail (which I have a hard time believing stands out as creepy in its depth given the nigh-fetishistic treatment of forensics in CSI and similarly ubiquitous police procedurals) it's very hard to make out a case that there's any intent to promote criminality here.

[Destriarch]

First off let me say that I'm not trying to give any credence to the idea that chapter 1 is a publicity stunt.

That said, I can understand why some people would take offence to the idea. Quite simply put, it's not necessary to know the precise details of how to dispose of a body in order to have one's character do it in an RPG, and including those instructions could be construed (especially by paranoid pressure groups) as an attempt to provide criminal information under the guise of a non-criminal book. Given that role-playing does occasionally get blamed for the acts of serial killers, rightly or wrongly being unimportant, it could be construed as a taboo move to actually be seen to offer a 'how to' guide on serial killing that could potentially be of real world use.

Whether it's an attempt to garner media attention is debateable. What's without question is that its inclusion is intended to shock and disturb. This is a horror game and it's easy to forget that when you're playing the horrors in question yourself. I've not read the book so I personally cannot judge whether this is an artistically valid attempt to represent the genre or simple shock tactics - the literary equivalent of when the heroine in a horror movie gets jumped on by a startled cat just to make the audience jump. It could go either way so I don't intend to judge. Suffice to say that frank and matter-of-fact discussion of morally questionable acts is one way of building a horror atmosphere.

Personally, I look forward to when White Wolf releases a sourcebook about nuclear weapons. It's bound to have a section about how to build your own

-Ash

[Coglio]

Thanks for the review, though I agree with the others that I think you are overplaying the bit on the sensationalism. However, that's your call.

The information about the Purified is interesting. I was wondering if nWoD would bring Mummies back, and here they are. I got interested in this book when I heard about it, though some of your criticisms about other aspects of the book (namely, price-for-page and some aspects of the other immortals) are turning me off.

In my opinion, White Wolf makes some of the best games I never play, and this book sounds like an interesting read if nothing else.

[sbca1995]

To be fair, if your character is going to be bathing in blood with any regularity, they'll need to consider the logistics of massive body disposal.

I always imagined that blood bathers would slowly become desensitized to the blood, so that the youth-prolongation effects obtained from the blood would deplete faster and faster to the point where they're shucking people at 10x the rate they were when they started. And at that point, body disposal becomes less and less creative. And as hysteria brought on by heightened addiction takes hold, they become less and less careful.

[BlackHat_Matt]

I wrote the chapter on blood bathers. Let me disabuse the reviewer of a few notions:

1) "White Wolf" wasn't trying to get any publicity for anything. I wrote the chapter, John Snead developed it (meaning he gave me the initial outline and some editorial fixes). I don't say that to convey the message the WW has no say over what they publish, which would be silly, but just to say that it's not like the outline said "Make sure you grab some headlines, Matt!"

2) I didn't have any courses in forensics. I do, however, watch an awful lot of movies and <I>Law & Order</i>. I've read John Douglas' books. Ooh! And I got online and asked for folks' suggestions (on my blog) for creative ways to dispose of bodies. I don't vouch for the accuracy of anything I put in the chapter since I'm not, y'know, <I>a fucking murderer</i>.

3) "Check local laws?" Are you serious? Ignoring any question of whether you personally find the material offensive (which you're welcome to do, obviously), the chapter doesn't endorse murder. In fact, I'm pretty sure I said, more than once, that blood bathers are reprehensible people, serial killers, monsters, etc. That you had trouble with the material just means that John Snead hired the right guy (he said he wanted me to creep him out). But you're right. If the local authorities ignore context and content, as you have, then they might misunderstand.

Do me a favor: Don't put words in my mouth. If you don't like it, fine. If you find it offensive, fine. But your language in the review (lots of passive voice, "The only conclusion that can be drawn..." sorts of statements) indicate to me that you're trying to say that everyone would find the same faults that you do. That's bad reviewing. Stop moralizing, say what you mean, and don't worry so much about what other people might or might not get.

[fnord3125]

I haven't read the book, or even the first chapter, but the "check local laws" bit made me do a double-take. I find it really hard to believe that in an age when we have shows like CSI and Dexter (and the novels on which the latter is based) that there is anything in a White Wolf book that couldn't be seen/read/learned from network TV or any number of novels in the Mystery/Thriller section of my local Borders.

[Brand_Robins]

Originally Posted by fnord3125

I find it really hard to believe that in an age when we have shows like CSI and Dexter (and the novels on which the latter is based) that there is anything in a White Wolf book that couldn't be seen/read/learned from network TV or any number of novels in the Mystery/Thriller section of my local Borders.

Dude, didn't you hear that every writer on Dexter was arrested last week?

I did. Not from a newspaper or anything, but from some dude on the bus. I'm sure he knew what he was talking about. I'll be sure to get his phone number next time I talk to him, that way I'll even have a source that I can cite. And a cited source means it must be true!

Also, I think it is very important that we all register our opinions on the price and color/black and white content of RPGs. Especially in this time of economic crisis, it is increasingly important that everyone state their opinions, no matter how much or little they actually know about economics or publishing, as facts. Doing so will help us understand the way publishing is going much more clearly, and will not just result in many people saying random things about pricing.